For researchers of the Jeffrey MacDonald case: The murders of Colette, Kimberley and Kristen MacDonald


July 1, 1970
Pre-Article 32 defense questioning of Franz Grebner (CID)



Q  This is a statement of Franz J. Grebner, Chief Warrant Officer, Three, and you are attached to what branch of the Armed Services?
A  I am with the Criminal Investigation Division.

ATTORNEY EISMAN:  This statement is being taken at the Headquarters in the office of the Staff Judge Advocate, 18th Corps, at Fort Bragg, North Carolina on July 1st, 1970, beginning at 1:05 p.m. Present are Dennis H. Eisman, civilian counsel for Captain Jeffrey MacDonald; Captain James Douthat, assigned military defense counsel; and Lieutenant Michael Malley, assigned military defense counsel.
     At this time I ask that Captain Douthat, under authority granted to him under the provisions of the U.S. Code, to administer the oath.

Franz J. Grebner was duly sworn to speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth by Captain Douthat.

ATTORNEY EISMAN:  I believe at this time Mr. Grebner would like to make a statement or a request. Now, Mr. Grebner, you expressed a desire to make a statement for the record, at this time, regarding your position in this interview. Would you please state it for the record?

MR. GREBNER:  Yes, I would like to request that legal counsel be here to offer me any advice that I may need during this interview.

ATTORNEY EISMAN:  Are you stating for the record that you will not give us or answer any questions unless legal counsel is present?

MR. GREBNER:  No, I am not.

ATTORNEY EISMAN:  It is my understanding, after speaking with the Staff Judge Advocate General's Office, Colonel Leonard, that we would be given the opportunity to interview yourself and other officers of the Criminal Investigation Division, without the presence of counsel.
     Now, [if] at this time, you are refusing to go on with the interview, I would ask you to make a statement of record and we will refer that to Colonel Leonard. However, at this time, it is my understanding that we are being permitted to question you. If you have any questions after the interview, which you would like to consult with counsel about, you are certainly free to do so, but at this time we are asking to go into the procedure, asking questions, and you may answer them if, as we expected, you would do so.

Q  My first question will be, how long have you been with the Criminal Investigation Division?
A  I have now been with the Criminal Investigation Division for a little over nineteen years.
Q  How long have you been at Fort Bragg?
A  On this tour since August of 1967.
Q  Have you been here before?
A  Yes, sir, I came here originally in October of 1964, departed in July 1966.
Q  In February of 1970, what was your position?
A  I was the Commanding Officer of the CID Office here at Fort Bragg.
Q  In reference to those duties, did you have occasion to come into contact with the matter of the United States versus Jeffrey R. MacDonald?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  When was the first time that you came in contact with this matter?
A  On 17 February 1970.
Q  At what time were you first notified as to the incident which occurred at the home of Jeffrey R. MacDonald?
A  Shortly after 0500 hours, February 17, 1970.
Q  Do you have any record as to the exact time that you were notified?
A  I am sure that I could have it written down.
Q  And it is your recollection it was after 0500 hours?
A  No, I am sorry; I take that back; it would be 0400 hours.
Q  With reference to that time, was it closer to 0400 hours or to 0500?
A  It would be very shortly after 0400 hours.
Q  What did you do immediately upon receiving information regarding this matter?
A  As soon as possible, I departed Fort Bragg, departed my home for Fort Bragg and arrived at Fort Bragg at approximately 0445.
Q  Was your home located in Fayetteville, North Carolina?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How long did it normally take you to drive to Fort Bragg?
A  At that time approximately twenty minutes.
Q  Who notified you as to this incident?
A  The duty investigator, who was Mr. Ivory on that particular day.
Q  What did Mr. Ivory tell you?
A  He said that we had an incident here at Fort Bragg involving the death of a wife and two children.
Q  Where did he say he was calling from?
A  I don't recall that he stated at that time. I assume he was calling from the office, but he may not have been.
Q  Is that all you can recollect as to what he told you?
A  Yes.
Q  Did he mention anything about Captain MacDonald's condition, if you can recall?
A  I do not recall that he said anything about Captain MacDonald at that time.
Q  When you arrived at Fort Bragg, where did you proceed to?
A  I went immediately to Captain MacDonald's quarters.
Q  And what time did you arrive at Captain MacDonald's quarters?
A  Approximately 0445.
Q  All right, did you meet anybody from the Criminal Investigation Division at Captain MacDonald's quarters?
A  Yes, I met Investigator Shaw.
Q  S-h-a-w?
A  Right.
Q  What is his first name?
A  Robert.
Q  Who else was present at the MacDonald home at that time?
A  Major Joe Parsons.
Q  What is his position?
A  He is Deputy Provost Marshal.
Q  And who else?
A  And Investigator Ivory.
Q  Was anybody else present at that time?
A  There were several MPs, whose names I do not recall offhand.
Q  What did you do at that time?
A  I entered the house. I briefly spoke to Major Parsons. I then walked down the hallway to the rear, looking into each bedroom. I did not enter any of the bedrooms; I stood at the doorway only; returned to the living room, at which time Mr. Shaw asked me if I would come outside to the rear of the quarters, of where he showed me a wooden club and a knife and an icepick.
Q  Where were these objects in relation to the house?
A  They were immediately outside the rear door to the utility room; the club was adjacent to the back stoop and the icepick and knife were a foot or two away underneath a bush.
Q  Mr. Grebner, I want to show you a diagram, which I believe has been furnished to us by the prosecuting attorney, stating this to be 554 [sic] Castle Drive, this being done by Mr. Bostic. Do you recognize this diagram?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What does this diagram reflect?
A  It reflects basically the floor plan of the quarters in which Captain MacDonald and wife and family resided.
Q  If you could, indicate on this diagram the entrance which you made to this premises, this being indicated what I believe to be the front entrance to the house and this entrance being what I think is called the utility room, as you referred to; would you please indicate by marking the figure number 1 where you entered?
A  Right here.
Q  Now, if you can just make a rough sketch as to what your path was when you entered?
A  The path basically was in this direction, down the hallway to this door, stopping at this door and this door and stopping here and then we turned, where I stood here and back to Major Parsons.
Q  Could you just put two, three and four, as to how you stopped?
A  (Witness complies.)
Q  Then you went back to point number 5, is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And spoke to Major Parsons?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  After you spoke to Major Parsons, you say you went outside of the premises to the rear, is that correct?
A  That is correct.
Q  How did you go to the rear, through the hallway?
A  Out the front door.
Q  And around the back?
A  And around the back.
Q  Could you please indicate on this diagram to the best of your ability, not going to hold you to exact locations but where you found --
A  This is the rear stoop here, and the club was here; this is the bush and this is the approximate position of the other two instruments.
Q  You stated the front of that bush was in a direction facing perpendicular from the back of the house, would that be correct?
A  Approximately.
Q  Now, these items were laying on the ground. Had they been touched?
A  To my knowledge, no, not at this time. A box was brought to cover the items, but I did not personally -- it was raining -- I did not personally see them covered, but to the best of my knowledge they had not been touched.
Q  Have you interviewed, you, yourself, interviewed or anybody to your knowledge interviewed the people who were in the house before you arrived, the MPs immediately called over and medical personnel and anyone else who might have been there?
A  They have been interviewed, yes.
Q  To your knowledge, do you know how many people were in the house before you arrived? Or can you give me an approximation, as far as MPs, medical officers and other personnel who might have been there?
A  No, I couldn't give you any figure. Any figure that I could give you would be very arbitrary.
Q  Well, would you say more than a total of fifteen people there including MPs, medical personnel, officers such as Major Parsons and possibly tracker personnel, a total of fifteen prior to the time you got there, according to your knowledge and information?
A  The only thing I could tell you from personal knowledge is that Major Parsons and a military policeman were in the living room. Mr. Shaw and Mr. Ivory had been in there. Standing immediately inside of the front door at one point were ambulance drivers, I believe, and two military policemen that I saw, apparently trying to stay out of the rain. They were told to depart and they just stood, just inside of the door.
Q  Was Captain MacDonald present at the premises when you arrived?
A  No, not when I arrived. He had just been taken away.
Q  While you were present sometime that morning, were any pictures taken of the premises?
A  Yes.
Q  Were you present when the pictures were taken?
A  I was when some of them were taken.
Q  At what time did the photographer arrive, to your knowledge?
A  There was one there at the time that I arrived there and I requested photographs be made.
Q  Prior to that time, had this photographer taken any pictures?
A  I know he had taken some.
Q  Do you know what time the photographer arrived?
A  I do not know; shortly before I did.
Q  Let me show you a certain picture and ask you -- we will mark this Exhibit Number 1 -- would you please tell me what this reflects to your knowledge, of this case?
A  This is a picture of, taken in the master bedroom, slightly to the right, taken from slightly to the right of the entrance doorway, or the entrance door.
Q  Were you present when this picture was taken?
A  I could not say; I may have been still in the house.
Q  Does this accurately reflect the scene that you saw when you arrived at the premises?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  I direct your attention to a blue object which is placed on the upper portion of the body and ask you to tell me what that is, according to your knowledge of this case?
A  At that time I didn't know what it was. Since then I learned it was a torn pajama top.
Q  Of whom?
A  Jeffrey MacDonald.
Q  To your knowledge of this case, how did this pajama top arrive in the position where it is now?
A  By Captain MacDonald's statement, he placed it there.
Q  I direct your attention to the white object which is placed approximately midway on the body of Colette MacDonald and ask you to tell what that is, to your knowledge of this case?
A  It is a heavy towel or bathmat.
Q  To your knowledge, how was that object placed on the body of Colette MacDonald?
A  I have no knowledge as to that.
Q  Does your investigation reveal as to how that object was placed there?
A  Not to the best of my knowledge.
Q  Do you know where that towel was before it was placed on the body of Colette MacDonald?
A  I do not.
Q  Mr. Grebner, I show you a photograph which I will mark 2. What does this object mean to you?
A  That is a photograph of the icepick found outside of the quarters.
Q  According to your knowledge of this case, what wounds, if any, were suspected to have been inflicted by this object?
A  Wound[s] to Colette MacDonald, and to the youngest daughter.
Q  Were any other wounds suspected to have been inflicted by this object, or an object like this icepick, to your knowledge of this case?
A  Not to my knowledge.
Q  To your knowledge of this case, did Jeffrey MacDonald suffer any wounds?
A  Yes.
Q  What type of wounds were they?
A  This -- I did not see him. I am only going by the medical report which I read, and they were a stab wound in the right chest area, one cut in the left abdominal section, just below the ribs, which did cut through the fatty tissue and a wound to the left arm in the flesh, in the left biceps area; and there were a number of superficial wounds from, as I can determine, very nebulous description, maybe consistent with scratches or light pricks to the skin.
Q  According to the medical report which you have with you, what type of object is concluded to have been the source of the wound which you identified as [a] chest wound, which also punctured a lung of Captain MacDonald?
A  It is my understanding that it was possibly a knife.
Q  A knife?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  By the way, this object here, is there anyone to your knowledge who can say positively that this object came from the home of Jeffrey MacDonald? (Referring to photograph of icepick.)
A  Not to my knowledge, not positively.
Q  Is there anybody who says or has said to your knowledge that they believe that this object came from the home of Jeffrey MacDonald, from personal knowledge of being there?
A  No.
Q  Mr. Grebner, I am going to show you [a] photograph which I will mark number 3 and ask you if you can identify what this is?
A  This is a wooden piece of wood, approximately two by two, and it is some thirty some inches in length; I don't recall.
Q  Is this an object which is referred to, I think, in the parlance of the laboratory at Fort Gordon, and I think according to your report, as Exhibit A, is this a piece of wood 31 by 1, is this what would be referred to as Exhibit A?
A  Yes.
Q  According to your knowledge is there anyone who can say that this object came from the home where -- the immediate area of Captain MacDonald's house?
A  The only thing I can say, that the paint found on that club came from [a] similar source to paint particles taken from the locked storage shed, from the back rear shed, back and immediately to the rear of his quarters, and from samples taken from a bed and bookcase in Kimberly's bedroom.
Q  Now, when you say paint was similar, is this your saying that according to the report of the Criminal Investigation Laboratory at Fort Gordon, is that the basis upon which you are making that statement?
A  Yes, sir, that is the only basis.
Q  And the report which was furnished to you is the basis upon which you reached these conclusions?
A  Yes.
Q  Now, according to the report from Fort Gordon, both of the piece of wood and the other objects which you referred to, what color paint was that?
A  To me it appeared to be an off-color white, more of a cream color.
Q  Where on the object -- could you indicate where that paint was found?
A  In this particular photograph I couldn't be sure.
Q  Was this --
A  It was on one of the flat surfaces here.
Q  When you say the paint was found, you mean the object, that this piece of wood was painted with that or that chips of paint were taken off of it?
A  It appeared to have been used to prop something up on to paint it, brush strokes had come down on it; this was the appearance to me.
Q  The conclusion which you reached, or which was reached by Fort Gordon, was that the paint was similar in color, texture and chemical composition to the paint found in these other locations, was grossly similar in texture, color and composition to the paint found on object, photograph number 3, which would be Exhibit A, is that correct?
A  That is as I understand.
Q  Now, any other chemical analysis which you know of or have any knowledge of in your report, other than this statement from Fort Gordon, Georgia?
A  Other tests than done by Fort Gordon?
Q  Yes.
A  Not that I know of.
Q  Now, you said to your eye this was an off-color paint, is that correct?
A  Well, it wasn't a pure white to me; it looked like a cream color than a -- I say between cream and white.
Q  According to your investigation, after you received back this report from Fort Gordon, Georgia, was any investigation or attempt made to discover whether or not this paint which was found on the object is of any particular significant difference from any other white or off-white paint?
A  Starting where?
Q  Did you or any members of the Criminal Investigation Division do any investigating to discover whether or not there was anything different or extraordinary about the white paint found on Exhibit A or the other objects?
A  That is not within our capabilities, sir, or our chemist.
Q  Did you make any purchases or make any investigation as far as the stores, etc. in Fayetteville or around Fort Bragg or any other place in the county, to determine whether or not this paint was different from any other white paint?
A  No, sir, I didn't.
Q  So that the conclusion which you are basing your statement on, as far as the paint being similar, is that there was white paint found in the storage shed and inside of the house and on other objects, which was grossly similar in color, texture and chemical composition; and that is the sole basis upon which that is made?
A  Anything that I have said is based upon the lab report, yes. That is correct.
Q  You wouldn't know how many varieties of paint or brands of paint could be described as similar in color, texture and chemical composition, of your own personal knowledge, would you?
A  No, sir.
Q  Is there anyone involved in this case to your knowledge who would have that knowledge and is going to testify in this matter?
A  The only one I can think of is the laboratory technician, sir.
Q  To your knowledge was there anything extraordinary about the paint which was found on this object and other objects inside of the house?
A  What do you mean by extraordinary?
Q  I mean anything which particularly identified the paint as being the exact same brand name or come from the exact same batch of paint?
A  I would have no way of knowing or doing such a test.
Q  Now, this object which we will refer to as Exhibit A, a piece of wood, was there any other piece of wood found in either of [sic] the house or storage locker which could be described as coming from the same, longer piece of wood? In other words, does your investigation reveal that the piece of wood which we have described as Exhibit A, is the exact or came from the exact same piece of timber, longer piece of timber with regard to any other objects found in the house?
A  Not to my knowledge.
Q  There were other pieces of wood found in the storage locker and in the house, I presume, is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  As a matter of fact, there were Exhibits A-4, A-2, A-1 and A-3, which were all pieces of wood taken from the MacDonald house, or the storage locker, is that correct?
A  That is correct.
Q  These were all examined at Fort Gordon, Georgia, is that correct?
A  I believe so.
Q  And none of these objects were found to be coming from the same longer piece of lumber as this object, is that correct?
A  That is my understanding.
Q  And if I showed you this report, or if you have any questions as to the statement I have, what has been furnished to me, that Exhibit A-1, which is a piece of wood measuring 11-3/8 inches by 1-9/16 inches by 1-5/8 inches, a piece of wood measuring 7-15/16 inches by 1-9/16 inches by 1-3/4 inches are grossly similar in type, color, size to the wood of Exhibit A, but are probably not different sections of the same piece of wood as Exhibit A-4; is not similar in type and other physical characteristics to the wood in Exhibit A, this would be a correct record of the information which was supplied to you and in turn supplied to us; is that a correct reading, from here down, if you would like to take it?
A  This is as I understand it.
Q  I am going to show you two more objects, these are to your knowledge, what does the photograph, Exhibit Number 4, reveal?
A  This is the paring knife with the word Old Hickory on the handle, which was found outside of the bush, immediately to the rear of the quarters.
Q  To your knowledge, what are these stains or discoloration on the blade?
A  I have no knowledge as to what the stains are.
Q  Now, this object [was] found where in -- where in reference to the bush, which you stated further was close to the house?
A  It would be further away, taking the trunk of the tree, it would be the opposite of the trunk from the house side.
Q  Now, to your knowledge, is there anyone who can positively say that this knife came from the household of the MacDonalds?
A  Not that I know of.
Q  Is there anyone who believes or has stated that they think this might have come from the house of the MacDonalds?
A  Not that I know of.
Q  Have you had an opportunity to review the statements of any witnesses who might have knowledge of this knife or any other knife?
A  Yes.
Q  And according to your knowledge of those statements, you do not believe anybody can say, either to a certainty or even a supposition or a guess, that they saw this object in the MacDonald house before this incident?
A  Not this particular knife, no.
Q  By the way, how many people were interviewed regarding this knife or whether or not this knife came from the MacDonald household?
A  (Pause -- no answer.)
Q  If you know; if you do not, say you do not.
A  I don't know exactly.
Q  Would you say there were more than several people that have been in the MacDonald house and might have had an opportunity to see this knife?
A  Yes, more than several.
Q  And none of those people were able to say to a certainty or even a guess as to whether they saw this knife inside the household?
A  To the best of my knowledge, none of them recall.
Q  I am going to show you [a] photograph which I have marked number 5. What is this, to your knowledge?
A  This is a paring knife, which was found in the master bedroom.
Q  If you can indicate on our diagram the approximate location of the paring knife by marking that?
A  As I recall, there was a chest here, chair here, and approximately here the knife was found (indicating on diagram).
Q  To your knowledge, was anything found on this knife, such as either blood or fingerprints?
A  I believe there was some blood.
Q  Were any fingerprints on this knife?
A  Not to my knowledge.
Q  To your knowledge -- when you say no fingerprints were found, you mean that no identifiable fingerprints were found or no fingerprint impressions were found whatsoever?
A  It is my understanding that no prints were found whatsoever.
Q  Now, according to your investigation, your personal investigation and the investigation of the other Criminal Investigation Division officers which you work with, has anybody positively identified this knife as coming from the household of MacDonald?
A  It is my understanding that a neighbor babysitter has stated that she had observed that knife in the household.
Q  Now, what is the name of that girl, if you can recall? If you can't, say you can't.
A  Right at this time, I do not know.
Q  Is this the next-door neighbor?
A  Kalin.
Q  Would you be referring to the next-door neighbor, a person known to them -- would this be a person who is known as Miss Pamela Kalin, 542 Castle Drive, Fort Bragg?
A  There were two Kalin girls and I am not sure which is which.
Q  Is this a person provided on a list of tentative witnesses?
A  This is all probability.
Q  Did you interview Miss Kalin yourself?
A  No, I did not.
Q  Did you have an opportunity to review her statement, which was given to you?
A  I believe I only talked to the investigators.
Q  So you are not certain as to positive she is or isn't that she saw this knife?
A  No, I wasn't there.
Q  According to your investigation, were there any markings on this knife?
A  The only thing that I can recall that was distinctive about it was that the blade was bent.
Q  According to the report from Fort Gordon, Georgia, that Exhibit B-2, marked Geneva Forge, USA, bearing red-brown stains, would this be the knife, sir, described?
A  I believe so.
Q  Were there any other knives which you know of?
A  Those two, none other, B-1 and B-2.
Q  According to your investigation, is there anything outstanding or special about the manufacture of this knife, meaning is this any different in manufactury [sic] quality than any other knife made by the company Geneva Forge?
A  Not that I know.
Q  Is there any particular characteristics of this knife which to your knowledge Miss Kalin identified?
A  I believe it was the fact that the blade was bent.
Q  Do you recall how she recalled this knife, particularly, as opposed to any other utensil in the MacDonald household? Do you know how certain she was about this?
A  Again, no.
Q  Has anyone else to your knowledge, from the reading of the reports of the Criminal Investigation Division, indicated that this knife was seen in the MacDonald house before this night?
A  Not to my knowledge.
Q  Was any investigation conducted by the Criminal Investigation Division to find out where this knife was sold or whether or not it was sold or readily available in the Fayetteville area or any other areas?
A  It is a common, rather insignificant paring knife.
Q  Would you say, of your own personal knowledge, that there are probably at least several thousand of these type knives manufactured by Geneva Forge?
A  I suppose so. They got to stay in business.
Q  Let me show you a photograph which I mark Exhibit 6, which I just found. Would this be an accurate portrayal of the knife which has just been described as knife, marked Geneva Forge, USA, and the position in which it was found, to your knowledge?
A  At the time that I saw the knife, this is approximately where it was.
Q  To your knowledge, or knowledge you have obtained by reading the files of the Criminal Investigation Division, do you know whether or not this object was moved from the time when the first people on the scene arrived, until the time at which you, yourself, and other officers arrived?
A  Not to my knowledge.
Q  Mr. Grebner, I am going to show you a photograph, which I am marking as Number 7. Could you tell me, if you can, what this object portrays to you?
A  I believe that is a photograph of the kitchen floor and with reddish-brown stains, which have been circled.
Q  To your knowledge, do you know what these stains are? Is there any indication in the investigation as to who did make these stains in the kitchen?
A  The only thing, I understand it was of the same type blood type -- I think those are bloodstains and bloodstains that were on the kitchen floor the same type of blood as that of Jeffrey MacDonald.
Q  To your knowledge, were there any bloodstains found in the living room of anybody other than Jeffrey MacDonald?
A  There were only two points that I recall where there were any bloodstains and they were of insufficient quantity to determine what type blood they were. This is as I recall.
Q  In relation to the diagram which we have gone over before, approximately where would these be located, with reference to this?
A  I would not be able to tell, no reference to point there. I did not do the preliminary search.
Q  Mr. Grebner, I am going to show you a photograph, Number 8. What does this photograph portray, to your knowledge, in this case?
A  It portrays the coffee table, which is in the living room of the MacDonald residence and it is turned over onto its side, down on its side.
Q  What is this object right behind the coffee table?
A  A rocking chair.
Q  If you can recall, in reference to the couch which was on the wall of the living room, would this be away from the couch or would the couch be on this side?
A  The couch would be in the direction in which the legs are pointing.
Q  What is this object lying down on the side? Would that be a bottle of glue?
A  What it appears to be.
Q  The other objects appear to be magazines and books and a box, is that correct?
A  I believe this is a child's game.
Q  What would this be?
A  House slippers.
Q  And what is this object?
A  A white plastic flower pot.
Q  In reference to the flower pot, do you have any knowledge, either through your own investigation or through your investigators, how this object was placed in this particular position?
A  This pot?
Q  Yes.
A  It was in that position when I arrived.
Q  Is there any interview with anybody, including Captain MacDonald, with anybody who knows how this object was placed in that exact position?
A  Not that they will admit.
Q  Where were the flowers which would be expected to have been in the flower pot located with reference to the table, or how far away, approximately?
A  I would say about eighteen inches, somewhere in there.
Q  Do you know how this table became in the position which it is in the picture?
A  No, I don't.
Q  Was there anybody else inside of the MacDonald house to your knowledge, other than MPs and medical personnel and criminal investigators, after the arrival of the MPs, first MPs, anybody other than authorized personnel?
A  No one other than authorized personnel.
Q  To your knowledge, is there -- was there any object which was seen by these people, which was subsequently missing from the premises, in the living room before your arrival?
A  In this area?
Q  Not just this area, I am talking about the entire living room.
A  No, subsequent to my arriving, just inside of the doorway, jut laying on the corner of that desk, closest to the door, was a wallet.
Q  What, to your knowledge, happened to that wallet?
A  To my knowledge it was taken by -- in all probability, one of the ambulance drivers. We later discovered it in the vicinity of Womack Army Hospital.
Q  Did you see that wallet, yourself, or was it seen by someone else and subsequently reported missing, or found?
A  It was reported to Major Parsons and myself, by military policemen who were in the living room, that it was missing.
Q  That he had seen it and --
A  Yes, I am not sure whether Major Parsons saw it or not.
Q  The photograph marked Number 8, the table and other objects we have been talking about, was that made in your presence?
A  (Pause -- no answer.)
Q  If you can recall; if you can't, say so.
A  I don't recall what photographs were taken in my presence. I was not interfering with the photographers.
Q  While you were there, many pictures were taken and you could not say definitely?
A  I think this one was; I think that I specifically asked that this one be taken at that time.
Q  Do you know the name of the photographer, offhand?
A  This particular photographer was the Post Signal man. I know his name, I just don't recall.
Q  Do you know the name of the other photographers?
A  Offhand, I do not.
Q  With reference to the time that you arrived on the scene, approximately how long afterward did you ask that this particular photograph be taken?
A  I would estimate between, approximately fifteen minutes after I arrived.
Q  Which was approximately what time -- not holding you down to the second?
A  It would be between 0445 and 0500 hours.

ATTORNEY EISMAN:  Do either of you have any questions?

Q  The slippers which you noted in photograph Number 8, did they appear as if they had been worn outside?
A  I could not tell you that because I didn't, as I did, I did not interfere at all, just took an overall look and I didn't look at details as to whether you would say they were wet because it was raining, I do not know.

Q  Was the rocker which appears in the background of this photograph, was that substantially in the same position as you remember?
A  As I remember.

Q  According to the lab report, there is an Exhibit B-two, one, five, which is a portion of a north bedroom floor bearing red-brown stains in the form of a footprint; that footprint matches in general shape, outline and size the footprint of Captain MacDonald. There are, however, no apparent ridge characteristics upon D-two, one, five. In reference to the diagram which you have before you, where would that be, the entrance to the north bedroom?
A  It would be approximately in this area.
Q  And the footprint would be found approximately where you -- if you would mark it with an F?
A  I am not sure which footprint we are talking about. There was one out here and a little further into the hall and one in there.
Q  Is there anything, to your knowledge, which marks the fact that Captain MacDonald's footprint was found at that location, according to the statement which he gave you and according to the knowledge that you have in this case?
A  He said he had been in that bedroom.
Q  Exhibit D-211 is described as a blue sheet, bearing red-brown stains from floor of east bedroom; International Blood Types A and AB were revealed thereon. If you can, indicate on this diagram where was this blue sheet found?
A  Approximately that point, I believe (marking on diagram).
Q  Now, is this the object which was described as Exhibit D-211, is that what you understand it to be?
A  That would be the point.

ATTORNEY EISMAN:  Let the record reflect that Mr. Grebner indicated a small portion of a sheet which is visible in the center, lower center of the photograph, at approximately five o'clock from the center, is that approximately right?
A  Yes.
Q  Which is approximately two or two and a half inches from the righthand side of the photograph and approximately the same distance from the bottom, is that [right]?
A  I think it is.
Q  Now, according to your information, first of all, according to your information, how large were these stains on the bedspread?
A  I can't answer that, sir.
Q  Is there anything reflected in your record that you have read, or that you have had occasion to discuss with others of the Criminal Investigation Division, that would reveal how large, exactly, the stains were with reference to each type?
A  I do not have that information; the laboratory technician would. As I understand, a considerable quantity of each type.
Q  Now, to your knowledge, was this sheet in the same position it was when the first people arrived pursuant to Captain MacDonald's telephone call?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Are there any other photographs which you would know of, which would show this sheet in any other position than as now revealed?
A  Not that I know of; I haven't seen any.
Q  Do you know where this sheet was prior to the time that yourself and other officers of the Criminal Investigation Division arrived, with reference to the bedroom?
A  Where it originally came from before it got on the floor?
Q  Where it was before, yes.
A  I can only assume that it is the top sheet from the bed of the master bedroom.
Q  Is there anything in your investigation which reveals who was attacked first in reference to Mrs. MacDonald and the two children?
A  I can't answer that.
Q  Is there anything in your report or anything in the laboratory report which you have read, by which you can say to a scientific certainty or to a medical certainty as to who was attacked first?
A  I don't recall anything offhand that says that Colette was the first or Kimberly was the first. From the pathology report; it may be there and I may have forgotten.
Q  Now, the object which was suspected to have initiated the wounds on both Colette MacDonald and Kimberly, at least one object was this large piece of wood which we have showed you on photograph 1, what you describe as approximately two by four --
A  Two by two.
Q  -- two by two, thirty-one inches in length, is actually an inch and a half by an inch and a half, is that correct?
A  Yes.
Q  Now, to your knowledge, is there any way to tell which of the two persons, between Kimberly and Mrs. MacDonald, this object was used on first?
A  You mean can I say? No, I can't.
Q  Can you say or is there anything in your report which reveals scientifically, which was attacked first?
A  No, I think the pathologist could answer that question.
Q  Now, according to the summary of the laboratory report, which we have received and you have received also, International Blood Type Groups A and AB were found on this object, is that correct?
A  This, as I understand, is correct.
Q  Now, is there any way to tell whether or not that if Kimberly were attacked first, that blood from this object, if it was on this object, could have been dripped in, on that shot [sic] in the bedroom?
A  I couldn't answer that question.
Q  Kimberly was how old?
A  I believe approximately seven.
Q  Kimberly was the oldest of the two children?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Is that correct?
A  I believe so.
Q  And the other child was named Kristy?
A  Kristy.
Q  And she was approximately three years old?
A  Approximately.
Q  According to your knowledge, both from the statement of Captain MacDonald and from your investigation, interviewing other people, was it the habit of Kimberly, the older child, to sleep with the MacDonalds?
A  Not any information that I have would indicate that.
Q  Did you have information from either Captain MacDonald or other people whom you interviewed or other agents' interviews, that on occasions the younger child, Kristy, did sleep with Captain MacDonald and his wife, in the bed with them?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Was that in addition to Captain MacDonald's statement or other people's also, if you can recall?
A  Hearsay evidence, hearsay from other persons.
Q  All right now, according to Captain MacDonald's statement, he stated that one of the reasons he was on the couch in the living room at the time, that Kristy had wet the bed, and he picked her up and put her back in the bedroom and had come into the living room. Now to your knowledge from your investigation, was there any spot which could be described as a spot wetting the bed, found on the bed, itself, or any of the bedclothes?
A  There was.
Q  Was it wet at the time you saw it?
A  I do not --
Q  Did it appear --
A  It appeared to be a stain.
Q  A stain which would be described as, to an expert father, appear to be something which a child might make if she weren't wearing --
A  Could have been.
Q  There was no indication whatsoever, according to your knowledge and according to the laboratory reports, that the baby, Kristy, was killed in that bedroom, is there?
A  I don't think any of her blood was found there.
Q  No blood of hers found?
A  No, sir.
Q  And she was found in her bed, is that correct?
A  That is right, sir.
Q  Approximately how much other stains of blood, if you know, were found in the master bedroom, of the older child, Kimberly?
A  The exact number, I could not tell. There were other stains.
Q  Was there a less quantity of her blood, with reference to the quantity found of Colette MacDonald's?
A  There was less, yes.
Q  Is there any question, according to the laboratory evidence that you have and according to your investigation and according to the review of the scene of the crime, any question in your mind that Colette MacDonald received her wounds in the bed? Is there any indication revealed that she received her wounds in any other location in the house?
A  Which bedroom?
Q  In the master bedroom. I am referring to Colette MacDonald?
A  I don't -- I couldn't say she -- I believe there is some -- there was type, also A Type in Kristy's, I am told.
Q  Would the presence of her type blood be consistent or inconsistent with Captain MacDonald's story that he first went to his wife and tried to administer to her and then went to his children? Is it possible that is how the blood arrived in that bedroom?
A  The only thing, the only way I can answer that, is that I have been told that the amount of blood in there is not pure of contamination.
Q  Is there any indication in the laboratory report that there were any stains on the walls or indication that the actual wounds were inflicted in the bedroom, such as spots of blood, to indicate spots of Colette's blood on the wall, large puddles of blood coming from the master bedroom, of her blood, is there any indication?
A  You mean any trail?
Q  Yes, of her blood.
A  Not that I know.
Q  In reference to the pajama top, was the pajama top found in one piece or more than one piece?
A  It was torn and the pocket was separate from the pajama top.
Q  Where was the pocket found, according to your information or knowledge?
A  In the master bedroom, at the feet of Colette MacDonald.
Q  I want to show you a photograph, Number 9, by the left foot of Colette MacDonald a rug is torn [sic] up, and the piece of material found on top of that rug, is that what you referred to as the pajama pocket?
A  That is it; I am told that was the pajama pocket.
Q  Now, is there any indication or any report which reveals that this pocket was not removed or was removed by any other means than in a struggle?
A  Would you repeat that?
Q  Is there any evidence, either scientific or from your knowledge or evidence from your investigation which would reveal that this pocket was removed from the top in anything but a struggle?
A  It would appear that it was removed by a struggle.
Q  Is there any way to tell when it was completely removed or when it was partially removed, from the laboratory reports?
A  Not that I know of.
Q  Was there any portion of this pocket found in the hands of Colette MacDonald?
A  As I recall, the pocket piece was intact.
Q  Were there any threads or portions of the pocket, itself, which could be revealed to have come from that pocket found either in the hands of Colette MacDonald or Kimberly MacDonald or Kristy MacDonald, any fibers whatsoever?
A  In the hands? One of the girls, I believe one of the girls had a fiber underneath her fingernail.
Q  Which one was that?
A  I don't recall which one.
Q  When you say "fiber," could you describe that? How long?
A  No, I couldn't. Most of what you have been getting out of me, basically, is hearsay; I only supervised; I did not do each one of these things.
Q  You do have occasion to review the work of your subordinates who did the actual investigation or lab reports?
A  (No answer.)
Q  Is there any indication that the fiber found under the child's fingernail was removed in a struggle with Captain MacDonald?
A  No, all I can say, they found the fiber.
Q  To your knowledge, Captain MacDonald resided permanently at this location with his family?
A  To my knowledge.
Q  He was not there that night for any specific occasion but resided permanently with his wife and two children, is that correct?
A  To the best of my knowledge.
Q  The pajama top which was referred to, was not a new pajama top, is that correct, to your knowledge?
A  To my knowledge it was not a new one.
Q  It had been worn many times by Captain MacDonald in the premises prior to the night in question, according to your information from both Captain MacDonald and from whomever you might have interviewed, is that correct?
A  It was his pajama top and not being new, I imagine he had worn them.
Q  Is there anything extraordinary about the fact that, if Captain MacDonald was wearing his pajamas throughout the night and playing with his children, that a fiber might have either got under the fingernails at that time or been [under] their fingernails from them playing with the top sometime earlier in the evening, other than the time of the actual killing; any way to tell?
A  This I could not say.
Q  Did your Division Investigators have occasion to interview neighbors about what occurred on the night in question?
A  Yes, [a] complete neighborhood check was made.
Q  Did you have occasion to interview the immediate next-door neighbor, Mrs. Kalin, the mother of the person we referred to as Pamela Kalin?
A  Did they interview Mrs. Kalin? Yes, sir.
Q  Did you have occasion to read her statement, if you can recall?
A  I don't believe she made a formal statement; I probably read the resume.
Q  Has anybody to your knowledge made a statement that the MacDonalds had a violent argument that evening?
A  No, not to my knowledge.
Q  Has anybody made a statement to your knowledge that the MacDonalds were in the habit of having violent domestic arguments?
A  No, sir.
Q  Isn't it a fact, that the sum and substance of people you have interviewed -- and I assume you have interviewed more than a hundred people regarding the MacDonalds?
A  Yes.
Q  You have interviewed people not only at Fort Bragg, but you have agents working with the Criminal Investigation Division who have interviewed people in the home town area of Ohio, is that correct?
A  Yes.
Q  People have been interviewed in the Chicago area, where Captain MacDonald went to medical school? And people have been interviewed in other parts of the country, regarding both Captain MacDonald and his wife, and as to their marital status?
A  Yes.
Q  According to the general impression of the sum and substance of these more than a hundred interviews, is there anything to indicate that the MacDonalds were other than a happily married couple?
A  No, sir.
Q  Is there anything in your investigation of Jeffrey MacDonald and Colette MacDonald which would reveal either of them to have engaged in any type of violent behavior, either between themselves or with other people?
A  Nothing.
Q  Is there any indication from the friends and acquaintances of the MacDonalds that either of them have ever assaulted each other physically?
A  Not that I know of.
Q  Is there any indication from your record that Captain MacDonald, himself, ever administered corporal punishment to his children, in other words, beat them, anything other than in a playful slap or anything like that?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did your interviews reveal that Captain MacDonald was a good father to his children?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Does your interviews -- do your interviews indicate that he ever became infuriated or outraged at things his children had done?
A  No, I do not.
Q  Do your interviews indicate whether or not Colette MacDonald ever became violent with either her husband or her children?
A  No, sir.
Q  Do your interviews indicate Captain MacDonald to be other than a normal, healthy, medically and physically, person?
A  No.
Q  Is there anyone whom you have interviewed or your agents have interviewed who stated that Captain MacDonald has taken dangerous drugs or addicting drugs?
A  No, sir.
Q  Do the laboratory reports taken of Captain MacDonald, after he was taken to the hospital, reveal the presence of any dangerous drugs or habit-forming drugs, to your knowledge?
A  I do not know what tests were made, but I did not see any information [that] this was the case.
Q  Does your information reveal that there were any serious or psychological problems whatsoever for which Captain MacDonald had either been treated or people you interviewed felt he should have treatment for?
A  None that I am aware of.
Q  Other than the wallet, which we discussed before, to your knowledge had any other object been reported missing from the MacDonald home, any object?
A  No, sir.
Q  Do you know anything about a diamond ring which was alleged to have been in the house on that evening, or been in the possession of Colette MacDonald?
A  To my knowledge a heart-shaped ring was furnished to Captain MacDonald -- I do not recall the date, but I believe it is on the property slip signed by Captain MacDonald; and approximately a week and a half ago other items were furnished him but I do not know exactly what they were.
Q  Let me ask you this question. I do not want to trap you or anything. Do you know of the report that the mother, by the father of Colette MacDonald, that she had in her possession a diamond dinner ring which subsequently has not been located in the premises, do you know anything about that?
A  No, I don't.
Q  To your knowledge, was any cash found inside of the house on that night?
A  The only thing I know of, is that I was told there is a child's bank or cat or something that had some change in it, but how much --
Q  I mean, when I refer to cash, I mean was any folding money found inside of the house by you or your agents or people working under you?
A  The only folding money I know of, Captain MacDonald said that he had approximately four dollars in his wallet at the time it was taken and at the time it was recovered, the four dollars were not in the wallet.
Q  Do you know whether or not there was any other cash inside of the premises other than Captain MacDonald's wallet?
A  Not that I know of, sir.
Q  Did any of the neighbors in the area hear anything extraordinary or hear anything at all at the approximate time which you believe this incident occurred?
A  (No answer.)
Q  Other than what we have discussed, as far as the next-door neighbors?
A  The woman residing in the quarters adjacent in the building, adjacent to the MacDonald's bedroom, stated that she heard a scream and she thought she heard children crying or a child crying, which only partially awakened her and she went back to sleep.
Q  Would that be Mrs. Jane Pendlyshok, who lived at 301 North Dougherty apartment, is that the person?
A  That is the woman.
Q  Is her statement consistent or inconsistent with the version which Captain MacDonald gave you as far as crying of both his wife and children?
A  There really aren't that many points to compare; she didn't really have that much information as to time or as to what she had actually heard.
Q  Did she say anything else occurred out of the ordinary other than hearing these things? I am referring to the dog.
A  Later she was awakened by a dog, I believe by sounds outside and did get up at that time and at this time noticed the military police coming around the house and someone saying to someone else she couldn't see, "Come over here," or something to that effect.
Q  To your knowledge, did any other neighbors other than Mrs. Pendlyshok hear anything out of the ordinary that evening?
A  No, sir.
Q  To your knowledge had any MP patrol been down Captain MacDonald's street that evening? If so, who was in that patrol?
A  I couldn't answer that question. I can only say there are patrol[s] assigned to that area.
Q  There has been nobody whom you have interviewed or has been interviewed by the Criminal Investigation Division, who said they patrolled there or inside of Corregidor Courts housing area that evening at the time or approximate time when this incident is suspected to have occurred?
A  I don't recall, offhand.

Q  May I ask you one question? To your knowledge, sir, how long was it from the time Captain MacDonald first placed his telephone call until the first MP patrol arrived there?
A  I think if I recall, that it took about eight or ten minutes.

Q  I have a few questions. Mr. Grebner, please, do you have any knowledge of any reports by people that were living in [the] Corregidor Courts area, of having seen any individuals that might fit the description of those Captain MacDonald described as the assailants that night?
A  Yes, we have them from all over Fort Bragg, Fayetteville, Indiana, Georgia, Florida --
Q  Did you have any reports of individuals in the Corregidor Courts area about the approximate time?
A  About that time, you mean? Not that evening.
Q  No reports on that evening?
A  No, there was one MP said that he saw a girl standing in Malonee Village, on the corner, and she was looked for. She didn't fit his original description or the description I heard of any of the assailants, that Captain MacDonald described.
Q  Did any report a girl with similar appearance to Captain MacDonald's description, running down through Spear Drive or Castle Drive?
A  Not that I am aware of.
Q  Did any report come in of having heard a group of people, containing at least one group at a late hour of night, within a radius, within the general area of Corregidor?
A  In the general area, no, sir, not that I know of.

Q  Who conducted the investigation off-post regarding Captain MacDonald's statement as to who [were] the perpetrators of this offense? Was it the Criminal Investigation Division originally or some other government operation?
A  Throughout this we have had not only the Criminal Investigation Division, but the Federal Bureau of Investigation and various local Sheriff's officers and police departments in various areas throughout the United States.
Q  Have these operations turned up the existence of groups who might be described as similar in composition or lifestyle as compatible with Captain MacDonald's description of them -- in other words, hippies who live in groups and who might have engaged in sordid behavior?
A  They have checked out many stories to this effect. And we have checked out many groups, not groups of violence, necessarily, but just hippie groups and there have been rumors that we have received which have been checked groups with allegedly violence, but these have all proved negative.
Q  Since the time Captain MacDonald has been formally accused of this offense, has the Criminal Investigation Division conducted interviews with anyone in following up leads of these types of groups?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Approximately how many people have been interviewed since the time Captain MacDonald has been formally accused?
A  You mean hippie types since then?
Q  Right.
A  Offhand I would say fourteen, more than a dozen.
Q  Within the last three weeks, have any such people been interviewed?
A  No, I don't recall offhand actually interviewing anyone within the last three weeks.

Q  Were you present at an interview with Captain MacDonald, which took place about 6 April, I believe, in the CID office, at which time one of the investigators -- I can't tell which one, [he is] not identified by name in [the] transcript -- noted that in his opinion, at least two of the rooms of the MacDonald house appeared staged? Do you recall that?
A  I don't think -- well, it may have been discussed and who brought it up first, I do not recall.
Q  Will you discuss with me now exactly which rooms were staged? I believe one of them you felt may have been staged was the living room?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Could you outline for me the salient facts which in your mind and other investigators, seem to indicate that the scene in that room had been staged?
A  (No answer.)
Q  Let me show you Exhibit, photograph Number 8, which reveals, first of all, the scene which has been previously described as a coffee table laying on its side and objects around. And Number 10 gives a more complete view for the area of the coffee table in the living room and other objects. I am going to ask you to look at this photograph, and ask you to point out what in your experience of nineteen years with the Criminal Investigation Division, appears to you to have been staged?
A  The first thing that I noticed in this scene is that the magazines, which by Captain MacDonald's statement were on the table, are under the leading edge of the table; and we have a flower pot sitting upright, near the end of the table and the plant and root ball of the plant are approximately eighteen inches from the table and pot.
Q  Are there any other items in that particular room which led you to that conclusion, any other items?
A  The fact that the table, itself, is sitting up on its edge and not completely over on its top.
Q  Are there any items that are not pictured in that photograph which also tend, in your professional eyes, to seem a little out of context?
A  This rug, which is basically between the dining room-living room area, throw rug, is in an area in which the struggle which allegedly took place with the hippies, and it is undisturbed, this rug which slips and wrinkles.

Q  Do you know when this photograph was taken (#10)?
A  No, I could not say. In fact, I am not sure when this photograph was taken or which photographer took this. We would have to go back to the negative.
Q  If the Fort Bragg Lab photographer had taken this -- if it didn't have the curtain there, you could probably see it was daylight and the others were taken at night?
A  I would guess probably the Post Signal photographer took this.

Q  Mr. Grebner, to your knowledge, the scene depicted in both photographs, nine and ten, is exactly the same scene?
A  Nothing had been removed.

Q  Calling your attention to photograph Number 11, which is a different view of the living room, showing the couch and the hall, directing your attention to the items into the steps, were those items in that position when you came to the MacDonald home?
A  As I recall, yes.

Q  Do you know who placed them there?
A  No, I do not.

Q  Have you any time seen those items in another area?
A  Let's see, yes, they were moved from here to this point.
Q  Onto the couch?
A  To the couch.
Q  Any photographs of them on the couch?
A  Yes, they were taken by the lab later in the day.

Q  Mr. Grebner, while you were in that house, did you notice whether there was sort of mud and debris on the floor of the house?
A  No, I didn't notice anything; the only thing I did notice is the grass. It was very dry [sic] outside and that there had been some grass which adhered to wet shoes and people in coming into the house had gotten this on the rug here.

Q  Mr. Grebner, looking at photographs Numbers 10 and 11, general area of the living room, to your knowledge, prior to the time that these photographs were taken, had anybody been into that area or had it been sealed off? For instance, had anyone in that area sat on the couch or moved the table or anything of that nature?
A  Not that I know of, no movement of anything. People had been -- in fact, this is the area where I stood, generally in the floor here.
Q  Let me confine it to the area in photograph number ten and say from the tip of the flower pot to the edge of the rug at the bottom of the picture and then back to the wall where the couch would be, was anything in that area moved, or had anybody been through there or had it been sealed off until the photographs were taken?
A  As you can see in photograph Number 11, they would have had to come down this way to take Captain MacDonald out, I believe down the hallway, coming down the hallway, and they would probably have cross [sic] over through the far edge of the rug.
Q  Other than the stretcher bringing Captain MacDonald out, in the course of taking him out, no one was in there to your knowledge?
A  In this area here? Not that I know of.

Q  Who was your commanding officer above you? Who assigned you to this investigation? Who assigned you as the Chief Investigator on this case?
A  Third Army.
Q  I mean as an officer, who do you come under?
A  Third Military Police Group, Criminal Investigation Division.
Q  Is a Colonel Kriwanek associated with this investigation?
A  He was the provost marshal for the 18th Airborne at that time.
Q  Was he involved in this investigation at all, to your knowledge?
A  As provost marshal, this would fall within his area of interest.
Q  When were these objects taken to the laboratory at Fort Gordon? When did you first -- prior to the time that you received this laboratory report from Fort Gordon, Georgia, had Colonel Kriwanek expressed an opinion to you or to anyone, to your knowledge, as to how this incident occurred?
A  No, sir, he was not drawing any conclusions.
Q  Did you draw any conclusion or did anybody working under you draw any conclusion as to his [sic] incident occurred?
A  No final conclusion.
Q  When you saw this scene, which you have or somebody has originally described in an interview with Captain MacDonald as staged, were you suspicious or was Colonel Kriwanek suspicious about how this occurrence arose?
A  About the staged scene, it was only a matter of curiosity to me. I felt that it wasn't natural.

Q  It was your first impression that it was not natural?
A  Yes.

Q  Mr. Grebner, I believe there was mention of rubber gloves having been found in that house. Could you describe where they were found?
A  You really should be asking the people that did the searching. I cannot say positively.

Q  Did you go in the bathroom, either one of the bathrooms in the house, sir?
A  Did I that morning?
Q  Yes.
A  No, sir, I only went down the hallway, only as far as the doorway.
Q  I show you a picture which I have marked Number 12, which shows a sink or basin bowl and in the basin bowl an object. Do you know of your own knowledge or have you been told what that object is?
A  A piece of Kleenex, I believe.
Q  A piece of Kleenex. To your knowledge, has any search been done of the plumbing of the house and fixtures or actual plumbing and pipes of the MacDonald residence?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Exactly what has been done to the plumbing?
A  All the drains have been dismantled.
Q  All the drains in the house? Are these the only plumbing fixtures which have been dismantled?
A  Drains, commodes, any drainage, I believe, has been dismantled.
Q  Could you elaborate as to what items were found in any or all of these drains?

ATTORNEY EISMAN:  Anything extraordinary?

A  As I recall, in this sink trap there was, I guess the water and debris was contaminated with blood, the only thing I recall.
Q  Any other objects other than that in any traps?
A  Not that I know of.

Q  To your knowledge, had anybody touched the telephones in the premises, other than Captain MacDonald?
A  I do not know of any. No, I do not know for sure whether anybody had touched them.

Q  Mr. Grebner, did you go in what has been described as the master bedroom in the house?
A  Did I go into the bedroom? No.
Q  Did you look in the room?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Do you recall seeing the bed?
A  Yes.
Q  I show you a picture which I have marked Number 13 which shows the end of the bed and ask you if you recall whether you could see, when you looked at the bed, see the mattress as it is pictured in this photograph?
A  As I recall, I could see the mattress.
Q  Have you subsequently seen any photographs or talked to anybody who said that when they went there, you could not see the mattress?
A  I haven't talked to anybody.
Q  Have you seen any photographs which would indicate that to be the case?
A  Not that I recall. Again, there may be a photograph that was taken later in the daytime; we have a number of photographs.

Q  Do you know of your own knowledge or have you been told whether that bed had a bedspread on it at any time that evening?
A  There was a bedspread that went on it; we found the bedspread.
Q  Where did you find that?
A  The place where the sheet was.
Q  Where?
A  The same position that the sheet was found, wadded up together.

Q  Did you search or was the premises completely searched at MacDonald's?
A  Were they? Yes, sir.
Q  Did you find any evidence of any alcohol or any parties or anything of that nature?
A  No, there were empty glasses, I think they found empty glasses in the sink. I do not know what they contained.
Q  Did you look in the kitchen, sir?
A  I went into the living room area and glanced through the door; I did not enter.
Q  To your knowledge, what evidence [was there], as contained in the kitchen, that might show how far somebody entered into the kitchen? For instance, for example, footprints on the floor?
A  I do know that there were footprints there with blood contamination.
Q  Could you tell where the blood contamination is located?
A  As far as the far wall of the kitchen cabinet.
Q  Any blood contamination or anything of that nature which would indicate anybody having gone into the kitchen drawers of the cabinets?
A  Into the drawers?
Q  Or cabinets?
A  In the cabinet, I believe, I think there were

Webmaster note:  In the original transcript, the last line above ends as seen here, with no further words or ending punctuation.

Q  You do not know what was contained in the cabinet underneath the sink?
A  The normal things a woman keeps there, cleaning materials and disinfectants, rubber gloves.
Q  Did you find any rubber gloves there?
A  Yes.
Q  How many pairs did you find?
A  I do not remember how many there [were], but several pair.
Q  Were these the type of rubber gloves that could be purchased commercially?
A  They are surgical gloves.

Q  Were they in packages?
A  They were in packages.

Q  Did you find any other rubber gloves or were any other rubber gloves found in the crime scene area?
A  In the kitchen above the sink or behind the faucet, rubber gloves used to wash dishes.
Q  Was there any blood contamination or anything on those gloves?
A  I believe there was blood, human blood; I do not know the type.
Q  Was there blood in the gloves?
A  I don't know where it was found.
Q  Did you find any packages that may have contained rubber gloves?
A  Not that I am aware of.
Q  Were these individually packages [sic] surgical gloves you referred to?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And your statement is you did not find any packages in which the gloves came in, other than [those] they were contained in?
A  You mean an empty package, no.
Q  Did you find any rubber gloves elsewhere in the house other than in the kitchen?
A  Not that I am aware of, that I can recall offhand.

Q  Were any objects found inside of the house which could be said to have come from a foreign or strange or unknown source, which could not be connected up with the house?
A  Not that I am aware of.
Q  And in your duties as the Chief Investigator in this matter, you were the person who directed or controlled the other agents in reference to assigned duties with this investigation, is that correct?
A  That is correct.
Q  Were any, was anyone else involved in assigning duties at Fort Bragg, to the investigation regarding this case, other than yourself?
A  No, I controlled the scene.
Q  Were any orders given to your men by anyone in a superior position, other than going through you and you conveying it?
A  Not that I am aware of.
Q  In this investigation, did agents working under [you] have occasion to take a room above that of Jeffrey MacDonald in the Bachelor Officers Quarters?

CAPTAIN DOUTHAT:  In the same complex of buildings.

A  Not in the same building, of similar type building, several buildings removed, yes.
Q  What was the purpose of those agents in taking that room?
A  To have a place to work.
Q  Was any surveillance conducted of either Captain MacDonald or his attorneys from that room?
A  No, sir, it is not in position to surveil his entrance or exit to that building.
Q  Has anyone in the Criminal Investigation Division conducted any surveilance of Captain MacDonald or his attorneys after he was released from the hospital?
A  No, sir.
Q  What?
A  No.
Q  Has anyone in the Criminal Investigation Division had any occasion to read any of Captain MacDonald's correspondence?
A  No, sir. I say this, that Captain MacDonald -- none other than Captain MacDonald sent to us, himself.
Q  Has anyone in the Criminal Investigation Division, or anyone to your knowledge in this investigation, had occasion to listen to conversations with Captain MacDonald on the telephone?
A  No, sir.
Q  Has anyone in the Criminal Investigation Division, working in this investigation, had occasion to overhear conversations between Captain MacDonald and his attorneys, to your knowledge?
A  No, sir.
Q  Has anyone in the Criminal Investigation Division or anyone involved in this investigation to your knowledge, employed any devices for electronic eavesdropping of either Captain MacDonald or his attorneys?
A  No, sir.
Q  Has anyone in this investigation, either working under your command or working in any other aspect of this investigation, had occasion to search the quarters of Captain MacDonald?
A  Yes, sir, on one occasion.
Q  On what occasion was that?
A  On an occasion when we were requested to do so. A thirty-eight caliber pistol had been stolen from another officer's room and at this time it was felt it may have been taken by a maid or someone who sequestered it somewhere else in the room or building involving rooms and parts of that building was [sic] searched for that thirty-eight caliber pistol.
Q  Was there any indication at that time that this weapon had been sequestered or taken by Captain MacDonald?
A  No, sir.
Q  By whose authority was that search conducted?
A  By the authority of the Command.
Q  Did Captain MacDonald request the presence of counsel at the time of that search?
A  I wasn't present on that floor; I was on the second floor.
Q  Did you participate in any way in that search?
A  Did I search anything? No, I was there only as supervisor.
Q  Were you in the quarters of Captain MacDonald when men working under your command searched these quarters?
A  No, I was not.

Q  Did you know that Captain MacDonald had quarters in that building?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  Did you know that he was a suspect and had an attorney?
A  Did I? Yes, sir.
Q  Were you in charge of conducting the search?
A  No, sir, only on the second floor.
Q  Who was in command?
A  Major Parsons was in charge of the first floor.

Q  Have any other searches been conducted by you or by anyone working under your command or involved in the investigation, other than the search of Captain MacDonald's quarters?
A  Any other than that particular one?
Q  Yes.
A  No.
Q  Is it a policy if an individual is a suspect or an accused, and has an attorney and you are going to conduct a search of him or his quarters, that you contact the attorney first?
A  I left the legal questions up to the legal people. I was instructed that I would supervise the search by investigators on the second floor of that building and that is what I did.
Q  Do you know who searched Captain MacDonald's quarters?
A  Which men particularly? I believe that it was Shaw and Ivory.
Q  Approximately how many men engaged in the search of the entire building?
A  Probably forty.
Q  Forty men?
A  (Affirmative nod.) Thirty-five or forty.
Q  Agents of the Criminal Investigation Division?
A  Those and provost marshal investigators.
Q  We have had some discussion, Mr. Grebner, about taking some samples of hair, I believe, somewhere in this investigation. Were any hairs found in any place that led you to believe they were connected somehow in an important way with this matter, any hairs of Captain MacDonald?
A  Well, naturally, his hairs are there, I would assume, and in order to eliminate hairs that are not identified, his type.
Q  Were there hairs found [in] any location that led you to suspect that was a place that might mean that Captain MacDonald was the person responsible for this incident?
A  Again, I did not do the crime scene search nor the laboratory work. You have to ask them.
Q  According to your knowledge of this case, what is the reason why hairs are being requested of Captain MacDonald?
A  For comparative purposes.
Q  Comparative to what?
A  Hair samples found in the house.
Q  What specific hair samples?
A  Again, you have to ask the people who conducted the crime scene search and know exactly where they found hairs.
Q  As the person in charge of this investigation, were you the person who requested permission of Colonel Kane for permission to take hair from Captain MacDonald?
A  No, I was not.
Q  Who was the person?
A  I do not know that.
Q  Do you know of your own knowledge why, other than the fact they just wanted to compare the hair of Captain MacDonald, why agents of the Criminal Investigation Division appeared at Captain MacDonald's quarters on the 11th day of June to take him to the hospital to take hair from him?
A  Would you go over that again?
Q  Do you know of your own knowledge why, other than the fact that they just wanted to compare the hair of Captain MacDonald, why agents of the Criminal Investigation Division appeared at Captain MacDonald's quarters on the 11th day of June to take him to the hospital to take hair from him?
A  No.

Q  Mr. Grebner, have you been told whether the hair samples that were proposed to be taken, are hair from Captain MacDonald's head or his body?
A  Normally it would be from all parts of the body, to compare hair samples. I do not know what samples they had, what evidence, what they have collected in the way of hair.

Q  Being the Chief Investigator in this matter, do you regard this fact as an important factor in the case, the fact that hair is being requested of Captain MacDonald?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  You do?
A  (No answer.)
Q  Viewing it as such importance, could you review your notes and then be in a position to tell us what specific hair samples you wish to compare any samples of Captain MacDonald with?
A  I would have to get in touch with the laboratory personnel.
Q  At this point you do not have that knowledge?
A  I do not have it.
Q  Who in the laboratory requested such hair samples be taken?
A  I do not know who made the request; all we were requested to do was to escort Captain MacDonald to the hospital.

Q  Who asked you to do so?
A  I think it was through the provost marshal.
Q  It was not through Captain Somers or Captain Thompson?
A  I didn't receive the request directly.

Q  Have any orders come, given by those of a superior position to Captain MacDonald, that he must go with you to any location?
A  Have they given me that order?
Q  Yes.
A  No.
Q  Is it your understanding that Captain MacDonald could refuse to go with you if he so chose, being an officer in the Army and in a superior position, as far as the Code of Military Justice, could he refuse to go with you?
A  No, he could not.
Q  He could not. If Captain MacDonald did refuse to go with you, would you take him forcibly?
A  If I were instructed to do so, yes, sir.
Q  Would you do that without a direct order to Captain MacDonald or with a direct order to Captain MacDonald?
A  Direct orders would probably be given Captain MacDonald.
Q  By whom?
A  By the investigator given the task to do so.
Q  Who would be the person who would give the order to the investigator?
A  It would probably be me, by instruction of higher command.
Q  According to your knowledge of the Code of Military Justice, would Captain MacDonald be compelled to follow an order which you gave him?
A  At this point, we are getting into supposition I do not know anything about.
Q  If you do not know, say you don't know. I am not going to pin you down. If you do not know, say it. That is all, why you do not know. To your knowledge, has Colonel Kane or any one of Captain MacDonald's superior officers given such an order that he must accompany you?
A  Not at the present time, no, sir.
Q  When you appeared at Captain MacDonald's quarters on the 11th of June, did you have with you a direct order for Captain MacDonald to follow?
A  Yes.
Q  From whom was that given?
A  From the Command, sir, from Colonel Kane.
Q  Colonel Kane? Colonel Kane personally gave you that oral order?
A  Not personally; passed on that we were to escort Captain MacDonald to the hospital.
Q  Were you ordered also that if Captain MacDonald refused, you were permitted to take him forcibly?
A  It didn't get to that point.
Q  Well, had you been instructed up to that point?
A  Again, in discussing this, we are discussing that I prefer to have someone that has more knowledge of it than I do to discuss it with.
Q  According to your information or your knowledge can you see Captain MacDonald anytime, with or without his attorneys being present?
A  No, sir.
Q  Has any order been given that agents of the Criminal Investigation Division can see or take Captain MacDonald anytime they wish --
A  No.
Q  -- without consulting counsel?
A  No, sir.
Q  According to your information, are you permitted to either take Captain MacDonald or get Captain MacDonald or any way transport Captain MacDonald without the presence of his counsel?
A  No, sir.
Q  Would you take Captain MacDonald or interview Captain MacDonald without the presence of his assigned defense counsel or civilian counsel of his choice?
A  No, sir.

Q  Has your agency been instructed to do as you just said, not to forcibly take Captain MacDonald unless his counsel had opportunity to be there?
A  That is right, unless counsel is present.
Q  When were they advised of this?
A  Pardon?
Q  When were they advised of that procedure?
A  By defense counsel, to be present in order to obtain hair samples.
Q  This, as you well know, is the general policy, that once a man requests legal counsel, we do not talk to that man about any subject matter under investigation without his counsel being present.
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Or being advised and given the opportunity to be present. Did you give him the opportunity to have counsel present during the search of his quarters on 29 April?
A  This had nothing to do with the case of the death of Captain MacDonald's dependents.

Q  Mr. Grebner, Captain Douthat asked you about "staged" scenes, one in the living room, which we have already discussed, and the other the bedroom in which Kimberly, the oldest child, was in. Now, Mr. Eisman will show you the photograph --

ATTORNEY EISMAN:  No, this is the younger child, Kristy.

Q  Mr. Eisman will show you photographs 12, 13 and 14. According to your knowledge of the case, what do these depict?
A  They depict Kimberly MacDonald in her bed.
Q  Now, is there anything which appears to you, or appeared to anybody working under you, as being out of place or possibly, in the term used by you, "staged"?
A  Yes, sir, I believe that she was taken from somewhere else and placed in the bed after she was injured.
Q  What would lead you to that conclusion?
A  The fact that she was wounded on the left side of her face, and that bled in the master bedroom and the covers had been tucked back under her body.
Q  Do you know who, if anybody, might have tucked the covers back under her body?
A  Captain MacDonald.
Q  Did Captain MacDonald, in his statement, say he did anything with reference to this child to administer to her?
A  Only that he felt of her pulse.
Q  Do you know which pulse he felt?
A  Carotid pulse in the neck.
Q  In the neck?
A  Yes.
Q  Do you know whether or not he had to move this child in order to feel that pulse?
A  He said he did not.
Q  Do you know whether or not he felt any other pulse on that child, the femoral pulse?
A  He did not mention the femoral pulse of the child, that I recall.
Q  You say he did not mention, or he said he did not do it?
A  I do not recall he took a femoral pulse of the child.
Q  What makes you say that it was Captain MacDonald who turned back the covers?
A  That covered her up.

Q  Did he state that or is that your conclusion?
A  My conclusion.
Q  Is that your conclusion from your entire picture of the case or is it your conclusion from his statement or anyone else's statement?
A  My entire picture of the case.

Q  Is there anything about that scene in particular which causes you to draw that particular conclusion? In other words, is this even directly related to that conclusion?
A  All of the parts of the big picture.

Q  I call your attention to [the] picture marked 16, which shows in the same bedroom and shows the bed and corner of the room with record player in the lower corner of the picture, do you know of any object or objects located no the floor near the corner of the room in that picture?
A  No, I do not know.
Q  Do you know of any?
A  I had people to search the premises.
Q  You have no knowledge of any footprints or any other item that might be shown in that scene?
A  That would what?
Q  Photograph Number 16 shows the one side of the bed in question and the corner of the room and a blue record player with a record on it. Do you know what evidentiary value these items, the record player or those items depicted in the corner of that of the room and that side of the bed might show?
A  No, I have no knowledge.

Q  Do you know approximately the size of the bloodstains of this child found in the master bedroom?
A  No, I do not know. I do not know how much blood.
Q  If the person or persons responsible for this killing had first used Exhibit A, the club, on this child in this bedroom and if it were wet with blood, dripping with blood, and had that person then gone into the master bedroom, is it possible that would be the manner in which blood was transported from that bedroom into the master bedroom?
A  I can only tell you what I have been told, that there was more blood than would have been left by mere contamination, dripping.
Q  Who has told you that?
A  The lab people.
Q  People from the lab, detectives?
A  Yes.
Q  Was any of her blood found in the hall, to your knowledge?
A  Kimberly's blood?
Q  Yes?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How much?
A  Again, I cannot tell you quantities.
Q  Was any of her blood found on the walls or ceiling of the master bedroom?
A  Wall; her blood type.
Q  Is there any indication in your investigation as to why or how she got into the master bedroom in this incident?
A  Only conjecture.

Q  Did you find traces of blood or watered-down blood in the trap of the sink in the kitchen?
A  I do not know. Again, you have to ask the people that did it and I cannot remember everything. That is in the lab report, everything that we have.
Q  Do you know whether there were any fingerprints or bloodstains or whatnot on the drawer where the silver was kept, or the kitchen utensils?
A  I do not recall whether there were.

Q  Mr. Grebner, besides the two scenes already discussed, which you might characterize as being staged, is there anything else in the house which you considered to be staged in the same sense?
A  Yes.
Q  What is that?
A  The bottle on Kristy's bed. The baby bottle in Kristy's bed.

Q  What leads you to the conclusion that was staged?
A  This child was violently murdered and the bottle lies with the nipple near her mouth. I think it was placed there.
Q  Is there any reason if a person were staging this scene, that he would place the bottle near the child's mouth, any logical reason why this person -- supposing Captain MacDonald had murdered the wife and children, he would place a bottle near the child's mouth, can you think of any reason?
A  No, it is just that you asked if I considered it staged. It is strictly an opinion and conjecture. I feel this was not the natural place for a body [sic] to be.
Q  If Captain MacDonald had staged the scene in the living room, with the way you feel to be, the table in that position, the flower pot in an upright position, had he killed his wife and children and attempted to stage a scene, would you have set the flower pot upright?
A  I cannot say.
Q  Is it more logical to assume that he would have knocked the flower pot over than leave it upright?
A  I can't say that, either. People do odd things.
Q  The scene has been described in one of the interviews with Captain MacDonald as not having the semblance of having been the scene of a killing of three people and the wounding of one person by four other people, since it was not disturbed greatly. Was it your conclusion about this scene also?
A  Which scene?
Q  The entire premises.
A  Yes.
Q  Overall picture?
A  Yes; the living room and dining room area perhaps would have been more disturbed if there had been a struggle.
Q  Do you think that Captain MacDonald, having staged this scene, would not have intentionally staged the scene more destructive, rather than leave such telltale items as a baby bottle next to the child after he had killed her, or a flower pot upright, if he claimed he knocked the table over, can you explain that?
A  I can't explain. I do not know a person's mind in a situation like this.

Q  Did you have occasion to look at the record player stereo in the living room?
A  I saw it, yes.
Q  Did you examine the stereo and records, most of them?
A  No, I did not disturb them; this wasn't my job.
Q  Well, do you know what fingerprints or if any bloodstains or other evidence or matters were found on the record player?
A  There were no bloodstains as [sic] I know of in this corner, in or near the record player. I assume there were fingerprints all over; though I don't know how many or particularly whose prints.

Q  As far as your knowledge, were any fingerprints found in this premises other than Colette MacDonald's, the MacDonald's family's and friends, Harrison, any other identifiable fingerprints to your knowledge?
A  I could not say. I would assume probably there are.
Q  Were these prints identifiable prints, matched with any known individual according to your knowledge?
A  I do not know that there were any matching fingerprints in the house.
Q  Is it logical to assume that since there were four people living in the house, and these young children had been living there several months and had been visited, according to your investigation, by numerous people, that there would be fingerprints in the house of other people?
A  Yes, as I said, I do not know if there were or weren't?
A  Is it your feeling or belief that Captain MacDonald removed all identifiable fingerprints from the entire premises and, therefore, no such identification can be made?
A  No, because there were identifiable fingerprints in and about the house.
Q  Were these identifiable prints identified as far as belonging to specific people or just others than the MacDonalds?
A  You have a lot of evidence there. I do not recall. I got fifty other investigations to supervise.
Q  In this investigation would it be safe to say that there were fingerprints found in the premises which were not identified as the MacDonald family or any other comparable samples which you have?
A  Again, I say I do not know, but it would not be unreasonable to think there might be.
Q  Does your investigation preclude the presence of any other people in the premises on that evening?
A  Preclude the presence of any other persons?
A  Other than the MacDonald family on that evening?
A  I would have to answer that I could not preclude that there was a visitor, only that Captain MacDonald's statement that earlier in the evening there were not visitors. I would say that our investigation does preclude that there were four or more hippies in the house.
Q  How does your investigation preclude that?
A  The lack of evidence.
Q  Is there any evidence of any object being found in the premises which could not be identified with other objects being found in the premises, foreign objects?
A  Wait a minute. What are we talking about?
Q  I am referring to any evidence of other people being in the house on that evening. Was there any such evidence?
A  Not that I am aware of.
Q  Where was Colette MacDonald on the night of the 16th, to your knowledge?
A  Earlier in the evening, she was, attended a class of N. C. State, here at Fort Bragg.
Q  Who accompanied her, to your knowledge?
A  Another woman.
Q  Who was that other woman?
A  Again, I don't recall.
Q  Would that be a Mrs. Cohen?
A  I believe so.
Q  How did Mrs. Cohen and Mrs. MacDonald get to school that night?
A  I believe in the MacDonald vehicle.
Q  And meaning that Colette MacDonald picked up Mrs. Cohen and they both went to school, is that correct?
A  I believe so.
Q  Did anything out of the ordinary, extraordinary, occur, according to your investigation or according to your interview with Mrs. Cohen?
A  No.
Q  Did Colette MacDonald express any fears or any other extraordinary emotion to Mrs. Cohen that night?
A  Not that I am aware of.
Q  What happened after the class was over? According to Mrs. Cohen?
A  I believe that she drove Mrs. Cohen home.
Q  Now, what time did Mrs. Cohen recall getting home?
A  I don't recall.
Q  Is there any extraordinary action taken by Captain MacDonald that night which have had a bearing on this case?
A  Not that I am aware of.
Q  According to your information, did she merely go to school, attend class and then leave school afterwards and go home?
A  Yes, sir; she may have stopped to get milk at the Milk Bar, and purchased milk, I believe.
Q  Other than that, did she talk with anyone out of the ordinary, or was she seen with anyone out of the ordinary that night?
A  No, sir.
Q  Is there any bearing in this case in any way whatsoever with regard to Colette MacDonald's activities that night?
A  Not that I know of.
Q  Is there any bearing in this case with regard to Colette MacDonald's conduct with any other matter?
A  No, sir, not that I know of.
Q  Is there any motive by which Captain MacDonald, to your knowledge, would have had, to murder his wife and two children?
A  No, sir.
Q  Has anyone in your interviews given you any type of a motive for Captain MacDonald murdering his wife and two children?
A  No, sir.

Q  Mr. Grebner, you mentioned -- I do not want to blow this out of proportion, but I want to get it straight -- you mentioned perhaps there had been someone earlier that evening. To your knowledge, was there?
A  No, I did not say that perhaps someone was there earlier. I said I couldn't rule out the fact that visitors might have been there. In other words, that someone visited with Captain MacDonald or sitting with the children. I can only take his word that no one else was there.

Q  Did you investigate the version of the incidents on the 17th of February that MacDonald gave? In other words, are you continuing to look for anybody that might fit the description that he gave?
A  Yes, we are.

Q  Does the name Marjorie Smith or Margie Smith mean anything according to your knowledge of this investigation?
A  No.
Q  Does the name Algenon Multrie mean anything to you with regard to this investigation?
A  No.
Q  Does the name Clyde Mavalt mean anything to you?
A  No.

ATTORNEY EISMAN:  At this time, as assigned co-defense counsel of Captain MacDonald, I would like to advise you on behalf of myself -- first, I would like to thank you for appearing at this interview. Thank you for answering our questions on behalf of myself and Mr. Segal and behalf of Captain MacDonald and Mr. Malley.
     I want to advise you at this time, and I believe you have expressed a similar view, we under no conditions give permission to yourself or any agents working under you to either see or take with you Captain MacDonald unless we are present. If you intend to interview or take him anywhere, we will be available and if we are so advised. And if Captain MacDonald is ordered by a competent superior order to go somewhere, we will be present to accompany him and insure that such order is a valid order. You have expressed a similar view of what your position is. It is just that we want to advise you formally of our position, so if anything arises in the future you will know our position in the matter, that we wish to be advised and we will be present for any further action which you are ordered to take regarding Captain MacDonald and we will be available to be there and would appreciate it if you do receive such orders to advise your Commanding Officer who does give you such orders our wishes to be there.

(There was further conversation which was recorded and can be furnished if needed, along this same line.)

Webmaster note:  The last line directly above is part of the transcript and was not added by this writer.

Webmaster note:  The original stenographer's misspellings of Kalim, Pamila, Christy, Pendlyshock, Dorrity, Prokriwonek, Cain, Summer and Coen were corrected to Kalin, Pamela, Kristy, Pendlyshok, Dougherty, Kriwanek, Kane, Somers and Cohen, respectively, in this transcript.