For researchers of the Jeffrey MacDonald case: The murders of Colette, Kimberley and Kristen MacDonald


July 5, 1970
Pre-Article 32 defense questioning of William Ivory (CID)


Re: United States of America vs. Captain Jeffrey R. MacDonald

     This statement is being taken in the General Courts Martial Courtroom, Fort Bragg, commencing at 9:30 a.m. on Sunday, July 5, 1970.
     Present are Dennis H. Eisman, civilian counsel for Captain Jeffrey R. MacDonald; Captain James Douthat and Lieutenant Michael Malley, assigned Military Defense Counsel.
     William Ivory, being first duly sworn by Captain Douthat, answered as follows to questions propounded as indicated:

Q  Mr. Ivory, what is your full name and rank?
A  William Ivory, Criminal Investigator.
Q  How long have you been with the Criminal Investigation Division?
A  Six years.
Q  How long have you been at Fort Bragg?
A  Two and a half years, approximately.
Q  Calling your attention to February 17, 1970, did you have occasion to become involved in the matter which we are discussing, United States vs. Captain Jeffrey MacDonald?
A  I did.
Q  What was your first connection with that matter, or this matter?
A  Well, I was duty Investigator on the night of 16-17 February. I received a call and responded to the call.
Q  What time did you receive the call?
A  About 3:50.
Q  And who called you?
A  I got it over the radio.
Q  Radio?
A  Patrol.
Q  Were you being called from the MacDonald house or somewhere?
A  Patrols, which were at the MacDonald house.
Q  Where were you at that time?
A  At the office.
Q  How long did it take you to get from the office to the MacDonald house?
A  About ten minutes or so.
Q  Were you the first officer of the Criminal Investigation Division to arrive at the scene?
A  (Affirmative nod.)
Q  If you can recall, who else was present?
A  Lieutenant Paulk, Sergeant Tevere, Mike Anmiva (?), Sergeant Hagney was there and Morris, Dickerson.
Q  Is it possible there were other people also present who you would not remember at this time because you don't have records with you, you can't recall others who might have been there?
A  Right.
Q  Were there more than one or two MP patrols already there by the time you got there?
A  Right.
Q  When you got to the scene, what did you do?
A  Walked in the house, received a briefing from the MP Duty Officer and then he guided me through the house.
Q  When you entered the house, how did you enter?
A  Front door.
Q  Through the front door?
A  Right.
Q  And were all the men you described, plus possibly others present in the house, or some outside?
A  Oh, they weren't all in the house; there was security around the house.
Q  Security already posted outside?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Was Captain MacDonald still in the house?
A  He was being wheeled out as I got there.
Q  He was being wheeled out? Where exactly was he when you came in the front door, when you saw him?
A  Just approaching the steps coming down into the living room from the hallway.
Q  Now what did you do after that time? I mean the next thing you recall after you saw Captain MacDonald wheeled in, where did you proceed to then?
A  Essayed the situation and went to the next apartment, made telephone calls.
Q  Was that the Kalin apartment next door?
A  Right.
Q  Who did you call then?
A  I called Mr. Grebner and a few others of the Investigators.
Q  All right now, at that time did you know, or do you know now how many were in the house, a total figure, before you got there or by the time? How many MPs or medics?
A  Since that time I have compiled a list.
Q  Approximately how many would have been, if you can recall?
A  That were inside the house or connected with the scene?
Q  Connected, in or outside of the house?
A  Oh, I would say a dozen or fifteen, including the medics.
Q  Other than MP personnel and medics, were any civilians or unauthorized personnel in the premises?
A  Unauthorized personnel, like what?
Q  A person, not an MP or not a medic, just somebody who came in out of the streets, so to speak, somebody who had no reason to be there at the time?
A  Not that I saw.
Q  Now, at the time you saw the body of Colette MacDonald, was there any objects covering it?
A  Yes.
Q  What were these objects, if you can recall?
A  Across her abdomen there was a heavy terry cloth or towel and across her upper region was a blue pajama shirt.
Q  Now, I am going to show you a photograph marked Number 9, which depicts the bedroom scene, and ask you is that the scene which you saw when you came into the house or came into the hallway before you got to the bedroom?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  This is the scene looking from the hallway into the bedroom?
A  (Affirmative nod.)
Q  And approximately the center of the picture appears to be a body, is that correct?
A  (Affirmative nod.)
Q  And halfway up the object appears to be a white object, which you described as the bath mat [or] towel?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And on top, the upper part of the body appears to be a blue object, which you have described as a pajama top?
A  Uh huh.
Q  Now, as far as the pajama top, do you have any knowledge from your investigation of this case as to how that was placed on that body?
A  Yes, placed by Captain MacDonald.
Q  As far as the white bath mat, do you have any information as far as who placed that on her?
A  No.
Q  Have you interviewed all of the MPs who were present and medics who were present on the scene that night?
A  Yes.
Q  Do any of them know how that object was placed there?
A  No.
Q  I am going to show you another photograph marked Number 6, and ask you to describe what is pictured on this photograph?
A  This is in the master bedroom. By the dresser, which is against the north wall of the master bedroom, there is a paring knife.
Q  I am now going to show you another photograph which is marked Number 5, is this the paring knife which was found on that occasion?
A  Yes.
Q  Photograph Number 5 displays a paring knife which is marked Number 2, Knife Number 2. In reference to this paring knife, is there anyone who can positively identify this knife as coming from the MacDonald household?
A  One of the babysitters, all I can say, one of the babysitters, positively identified it as a knife that came from the MacDonald's.
Q  What is the name of that babysitter?
A  That I would have to tear through some notes to find out. I didn't interview her and wasn't there when she was interviewed.
Q  This is something told to you by one of the other investigators?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Could this have been Pamela Kalin, the daughter of the next-door neighbors?
A  Could have been, one of the babysitters.
Q  If I told you that Mr. Grebner told us on Wednesday, according to his knowledge of the case, this was the person you describe as identifying the object, would that refresh your recollection or would it still be a little foggy?
A  It would be foggy, but if he says that is who it was, it must have been who it was.
Q  If I told you that Mr. -- by the way, who did interview Miss Kalin, if you know?
A  If I knew that, then I would know for sure she was the one. I just don't know, so many interviews.
Q  Do you know how she identified this particular knife?
A  Yes, sir, by the curvature of the blade.
Q  This knife having been described as a knife bearing the markings "Geneva Forge, USA," according to your information, have you or any members of the Criminal Investigation Division or FBI or anybody who has investigated this case, any way conducted an investigation regarding the manufacturer of this knife, to determine whether or not this is the normal condition of this knife?
A  No. I have not.
Q  Has anyone else?
A  Not to my knowledge.
Q  In your reading of your report, anything in your report of the Criminal Investigation Division, which would reveal that this is not the normal condition of this knife?
A  Not right now, that I know of.
Q  Not that you know of?
A  Right.
Q  All right now, I am going to show you a photograph which I have marked Number 2, and ask you to describe what you see in that photograph?
A  An ice pick.
Q  This is an ice pick photograph which has been supplied to us by government trial attorney Mr. Somers. Have you seen an object, this object or an object which to your recollection is similar to that, on the night of February 17 or the morning of February 17?
A  Yes.
Q  Where did you see that object?
A  Under some bushes in the back.
Q  Now, in reference to this object, is there anyone who positively identified this object? Is there anyone who positively identified that object as coming from the MacDonald household?
A  This particular item?
Q  Yes.
A  Not to my knowledge.
Q  Is there anybody who says that they believe that object or an ice pick like that came from the MacDonald household?
A  MacDonald, himself, told us he had an ice pick.
Q  When did MacDonald tell you that?
A  He did not tell me that.
Q  Who did he tell that to?
A  He told one of the other investigators, perhaps the FBI man.
Q  Would the first investigator who saw MacDonald, from your investigation, be Mr. Connolly?
A  He was probably one of the persons.
Q  If I told you that we have a copy of Mr. Connolly's statement and that in his statement concerning the interview, the first interview with Captain MacDonald, there is no statement by Captain MacDonald that he had an ice pick, would that be in accordance with your recollection or not in accordance with your recollection?
A  Well, if it is indicated, Connolly probably wasn't the one he told.
Q  Do you know who else saw Captain MacDonald in the hospital?
A  Mr. Hodges.
Q  Was Mr. Hodges with Mr. Connolly that day, at that time?
A  Not that I know of. I was busy at the time.

Q  Do you know if Mr. Shaw interviewed Captain MacDonald in the hospital?
A  (Shakes head negatively.)
Q  You do not know or he did not?
A  No, I do not.

Q  Did Captain MacDonald ever say, according to your knowledge of the case, that this particular ice pick came from his house?
A  To my knowledge, he said he never said that particular ice pick.
Q  In your presence did he ever make a statement that he had an ice pick in the house?
A  No, he did not.
Q  Actually, when you interviewed Captain MacDonald on the 6th of April, he denied ever having an ice pick in the house?
A  Yes.
Q  He also denied ever telling anyone else that he had an ice pick, isn't that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  That is one of the points you and Mr. Shaw and Mr. Grebner questioned him about, whether in fact he had an ice pick or ever said he had an ice pick, is that correct?
A  (Affirmative nod.)
Q  And he emphatically denied it at that time?
A  Yes.
Q  Is there anyone else who has told you or anybody in the Criminal Investigation Division, that he did have an ice pick in the house?
A  I am not thoroughly familiar with these interviews with the babysitter; she may have said it or may not.
Q  But to your knowledge, at this time, you cannot report anyone who did say that he did?
A  (Shakes head negatively.)
Q  I am going to show you a photograph which is marked Number 4, and ask you to identify the object found in that photograph?
A  A paring knife.
Q  And what does this have to do with this case, if you know?
A  If that is the picture furnished you by Captain Somers, that is a knife that was found under the bushes to the rear of the house.
Q  And do you know what the stains are on the blade of that knife?
A  Let's see -- I am trying to think when these photographs were taken -- it is probably rust or some discoloration.
Q  Now in reference to this paring knife, is there anyone to your knowledge or through your knowledge of the entire investigation, who has identified this paring knife as coming from the MacDonald household?
A  (Shakes head negatively.)
Q  Now, I am going to show you a photograph which is marked Number 3, which has been also supplied to us by Mr. Somers and ask you to identify that object?
A  All right, it is the length of wood found also outside of the rear of the house.
Q  Now in reference to this, is this the object which you believe to have been used in the beatings and killings in this case?
A  (Affirmative nod.)
Q  Is there any information you have that this particular piece of wood came from the MacDonald household?
A  Yes.
Q  What is that?
A  The comparison of the paint that was found on the club, configuration of the design of the paint.
Q  What did the configuration of the design of the paint mean in reference to the MacDonald household?
A  It appears somebody had set a leg of a bed or table up on top of it to paint the leg and the paint had dripped down and formed a U whereas some other part of the table leg or leg of the bed was hanging over one edge of the club; therefore we had a U shape.
Q  Is the U shape of paint on top of the club or on the bottom?
A  On the side.
Q  On the side of the club, or the table?
A  Where somebody had taken a leg of a chair or table or bed, put it there, and painted here and the paint had dripped down on here in a U shape.
Q  And, therefore, if this were the piece of wood, there would be a U on the table?
A  No. This is the leg of the table (illustrating with a pad of machine shorthand paper as the table leg) and I am painting the leg of the table -- see, I am painting this and getting paint in a U shape around here.
Q  I see. Is there any other indication that this piece of wood came from the MacDonald household?
A  We found similar type wood.
Q  There would be other pieces of wood, which has been described in laboratory reports as being similar but not coming from the same piece of board?
A  Uh huh.
Q  Is that correct?
A  Uh huh.
Q  Now, according to your information, the paint which you have described found both on this wood and compared with certain paint samples inside of the house or in or found inside of the storage shed, is that described as exactly the same paint or just grossly similar according to your --
A  If I can remember the terminology, I believe the opinion of the examiner was that it could have come from the same pot or something to that effect.
Q  Examination of paint samples removed from Exhibit A, which I think is this, were found to be grossly similar in color, texture and chemical composition to the paint of Exhibit 2 or on 32 (reading and hard to hear because of air conditioner) or other objects found inside of the house. Is that also the knowledge that you have of this case?
A  As far as the findings of the laboratory report.
Q  This is the laboratory report. Do you have any other laboratory reports, to your knowledge, which goes into any more details than those findings?
A  I think that was put out in the preliminary report, the best of my recollection.
Q  You don't have any lengthy detailed report regarding the paint or comparison of the paint, do you, other than as it appears in the report which you received, this report?
A  No, we don't.
Q  Has any investigation been conducted regarding or to find out who the manufacturer of this paint was?
A  To my knowledge, no.
Q  Has any investigation been conducted to find out how many different manufacturers or other manufacturers manufacture a paint that could be described as grossly similar in color, texture and chemical composition to the paint found on that object?
A  To my knowledge, no.
Q  Other than the information which I have just given you regarding the findings, is there any other information which you might have or which you can recall reading in the files of the Criminal Investigation Division which would say that this object came from inside of the MacDonald household?
A  Well, let's see, paint, by the paint -- let's go back to that. They say we got this U shape here of the paint -- let's say white paint because that is what it looks like, white paint, and it looked like it was underneath -- no, there is another shade of eggshell paint, in the same configuration, and on one of the exhibits we sent down for comparison taken from the storage shed, which also has the same thing with white and the eggshell. We measured them and they came as close as they could possibly come.
Q  To your knowledge has any material been found in the MacDonald household which was described as not having been there before the night of the incident and could also be described as alien to the property, something you could not find inside of the house?
A  Anything strange to the house?
Q  Yes.
A  Not to my recollection.
Q  Is there anything which was found inside of the house to your recollection, which would support Captain MacDonald's statement that there were other people in the house on that night, other than him and his family?
A  No.
Q  Now, you said that when you got there, there were other people who were already there. Was it raining or clear at the time you arrived?
A  A light rain at the time I got there. It had been raining heavier earlier but as I walked up to the house, there was a light rain.
Q  Now, did you find any mud or any evidence of any people coming in from the outside inside of the MacDonald house?
A  Oh yes, sir, of course the MPs left tracks.
Q  Would you know whether or not those were left by the MPs or could have been left by somebody before the MPs?
A  What I saw on the floor was a trail from somebody walking from the rear door down to the front door; it was grass, still wet. I made a note after I heard about this.
Q  If I told you there were approximately fifteen people in the house between the time the first MPs arrived inside of the house --
A  Now, when I said fifteen, I took in the security around the house.
Q  If there were -- let's not tie it down to a figure of fifteen, but if there were several MPs and medical personnel who had come into the house, some had come in and left by the time you got there, do you think I would be incorrect?
A  Some probably.
Q  How many people were carrying Captain MacDonald out that you saw?
A  Two medics and an MP.
Q  Now, before they came there, do you know who was inside of the house?
A  Before they came there?
Q  Yes.
A  There were about five or six MPs, but they weren't all going all through the house. They were -- this is according to what Lieutenant Paulk tells me, as soon as he saw some people coming into the house, he said, "Out," or "you stand right here, don't touch anything."
Q  But this is not from your personal knowledge; it is something that Lieutenant Paulk told you?
A  This was before I arrived.
Q  Do you know anything about -- I have asked this question before, but has anybody been described as uniform[ed] personnel wearing civilian clothes inside of the premises on that night?
A  Inside of the premises? I do know somebody came to the door. I think it was -- I do not know who it was -- I think a Chaplain. I was told somebody came to the door or saw somebody on the landing.
Q  You saw somebody?
A  On the landing outside, but --
Q  That was when you were there?
A  This is, I was in the house but to my knowledge he did not come into the house.

Q  Did you see anybody wearing blue jeans in the house that evening?
A  No.

Q  Everyone you saw in the vicinity of the house or in the house, can you describe anybody either dressed other than that of an official army uniform? For instance, you were in civilian clothes?
A  Yes.
Q  What other individuals were there in civilian clothes to your knowledge?
A  The PMI (?) duty investigator was there, had two photographers there; Mr. Kalin was with me and other agencies arrived.
Q  Do you recall seeing Captain MacDonald's wallet while you were there at the house?
A  I do not recall.
Q  Do you know where Captain MacDonald's wallet was eventually found?
A  Yes.
Q  Where?
A  Enroute to the hospital.
Q  Do you know exactly where it was found?
A  Not exactly. I know in my mind, I have a picture of where it was found. I do not know if that is the right place. I got a picture of somewhere near a curve that breaks off from Honeycutt, the back way.
Q  Now, approximately how many people have you interviewed regarding this case, just roughly?
A  Not many.
Q  Give me a round figure?
A  Half a dozen.
Q  A dozen?
A  Well, we made a cursory sweep through the neighborhood the first morning. Now there were some people there. I am not including that in the interviews, if that is what you mean.
Q  Has everybody in the neighborhood been interviewed subsequent to this incident?
A  To my knowledge, they have.
Q  To your knowledge has anybody by the name of Winnie Casper been interviewed, a neighbor?
A  Where does Casper live?
Q  You say the name isn't familiar. All right.
A  (No answer.)

Q  Did anyone in the Corregidor Courts area report seeing any unknown individual on the night of February 16?
A  There was a report during the day, I believe.
Q  Do you recall what that report was?
A  A woman came out of her house and couldn't get her car out because another car had her blocked and she saw these people, and she reflected the next day --
Q  What was her description of these people?
A  I am not even sure of the number, four or five, being somewhat mod or hippie. I do not remember the details. I am not really familiar with them.

Q  Do you know the woman's name?
A  No, I don't.

Q  Do you know who interviewed her?
A  I tell you, we had about thirty people doing neighborhood checks.
Q  Who were the people that you interviewed, specifically?
A  Well, there was this Mrs. Pendlyshok.
Q  Janice Pendlyshok?
A  Yes.
Q  Immediate neighbor in the rear of the house?
A  Yes.
Q  Who else?
A  The Kalins.
Q  Who else?
A  Captain MacDonald.
Q  Was that the interview of which we have a copy, which has been transcribed, or another?
A  This one.
Q  Who else?
A  I am trying to think of people in that immediate neighborhood. There were a few others, but specifically, I can't think of the names.
Q  Of those people who you interviewed, has anybody of those people, have any of them said that Captain MacDonald was not a good husband and father?
A  No, not that I know of.
Q  Have any of them said that they witnessed any violent argument between Captain MacDonald and his wife?
A  Yes.
Q  Who was that?
A  The next-door neighbors.
Q  Mrs. Pendlyshok?
A  No, the others.
Q  Mrs. Kalin?
A  Kalin.
Q  Anyone else?
A  No.

Q  Would you give Mrs. Kalin's description of that argument?
A  Oh, something about him buying something and not saving, and then again, with the children, there was one of the children in the middle, doing something and Colette corrected the child and the Captain reared back.
Q  How soon before this incident did that occur?
A  I don't know.
Q  Did Mrs. Kalin, the next-door neighbor, see any instance where Captain MacDonald argued violently with the wife or children?
A  Oh, she mentioned that on a few occasions that they had pretty loud arguments.
Q  Has she any information or did she ever tell you that she heard from Mrs. MacDonald that Captain MacDonald ever struck her or the children?
A  Not to my knowledge.
Q  Has anyone ever said that Captain MacDonald ever struck her or the children?
A  Not to my knowledge.

Q  Approximately how many times has Mrs. Kalin been interviewed?
A  Well, her being right next door to where we worked for such a lengthy period of time, almost every day going up to the house and stopping there and speaking to Mrs. Kalin and her entering into the conversation.
Q  To your knowledge or what anyone may have told you or what you may have seen, did Mrs. Kalin in any way vary in her testimony concerning the MacDonalds or her opinion or what she recalls they did or didn't do?
A  Not that I recall, any great variations.

Q  How about Miss Kalin, Pamela Kalin, do you know what she said about the MacDonald family?
A  I think what she described as a possible babysitter, the extent of my talking with Pamela Kalin, was just to ask her if she heard anything that night or heard any commotion or noise in the bedroom.

Q  What was her answer?
A  No, she heard no commotion.

Q  Did she hear anything that night?
A  (Shakes head negatively.)
Q  Now, did you or agents of the Criminal Investigation Division or other law enforcement officers have occasion to examine or interview people, not only here at Fort Bragg, but in Long Island and Chicago and any other place where the MacDonalds might have resided?
A  Yes, I, myself, went up to Long Island.
Q  You interviewed how many people in Long Island?
A  The Kassabs, Mr. and Mrs. Kassab.
Q  Anyone else?
A  No, we attempted to locate someone else in town and no go.
Q  Approximately how many friends or acquaintances or business relations or school relations of the MacDonalds were interviewed in this matter?
A  Oh, many.
Q  Would you say more than a hundred?
A  Possibly. I do not know, a goodly number.
Q  Have any of those people -- if so, who -- have any of those stated that Captain MacDonald and Mrs. MacDonald had had violent arguments?
A  Most of the people who were interviewed were old school friends, who hadn't seen him for some time and their recollection --
Q  Is there anyone who said that Captain MacDonald had a violent temper and reacted physically when placed under stress?
A  I think somebody did say that, but I don't remember who it was.
Q  Is that person going to be called as a witness in this case?
A  I couldn't say; I don't know.
Q  Has anybody stated, to your knowledge, of all the people interviewed in this case, that Captain MacDonald ever struck his children?
A  Not to my knowledge.
Q  Has anybody stated to your knowledge that, in this case, that Mrs. MacDonald ever struck the children?
A  Not to my knowledge.
Q  Has anybody stated to your knowledge that Captain MacDonald ever struck Mrs. MacDonald?
A  Not to my knowledge.
Q  You stated that you interviewed Mr. Kassab, the father-in-law of Captain MacDonald?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did he give you any information that Captain MacDonald and Mrs. MacDonald were anything other than a very happily married couple?
A  As far as he knew, they weren't having any problems.
Q  Did he say anything to you about hearing from Colette within a short period of time before this incident?
A  That is what I am trying to get right -- he talked to her on the telephone the weekend before, Saturday or Sunday, I don't know. And I am trying to think what it was. I guess they were talking about her pregnancy and she seemed a little worried about it, or something.
Q  No domestic quarrels or problems or disputes?
A  None they knew of.
Q  Do you know whether they were particularly close with their daughter, kept in contact at least once a week?
A  It appeared that Alfred Kassab or Mr. Kassab was in more contact than Mrs. Kassab.
Q  They spoke with their daughter approximately once a week, at least, on the telephone?
A  Yes; he used to call her from the office.
Q  But none of these people indicated to you any particular problem in the MacDonald household on February 16-17?
A  No.
Q  From what anybody has told you, that there has been any particular problem between Captain MacDonald and Mrs. MacDonald, which they argued about violently?
A  No.
Q  Has anybody told you that there was any problem between Captain MacDonald and his two children or Colette and their two children?
A  Again, names I don't know. There was something to do with the youngest child, Kristy.
Q  What was the problem with Kristy?
A  She seemed to be jealous of the unborn child and it just seemed that she was trying to push Colette out of the picture and take to the father; she was wetting the bed, etc.
Q  Was she also described as crawling into the bed between them or with them at night, also?
A  Yes.
Q  Was there anything strange or abnormal about this particular phenomena to your knowledge? Do you have any knowledge --
A  I have two children.
Q  Is there anything strange or abnormal about that particular conduct?
A  No, I had one of them in bed this morning.

Q  Did you interview a Mrs. Coahn [sic]?
A  Coahn?
Q  C-O-A-H-N? [sic]
A  I did not interview her. She was interviewed. I did not.
Q  Did you interview anybody that associated with Mrs. MacDonald at her night classes at school?
A  I did not.
Q  Do you know who was interviewed?
A  I do not know if the entire class was interviewed or not; I don't know. People from her class were going to be interviewed.
Q  In your conversation with Mr. Kassab and anybody else you interviewed regarding the family relations of the MacDonalds before this incident, would it be fair to say she was happier or more secure or less secure and unhappy than they had ever been before, in any other position they have been?
A  Secure by monetary means?
Q  Yes, monetary and time?
A  Well, the Kassabs seemed to feel that they were secure and that he had a steady income.
Q  And this was because Captain MacDonald had been in school and medical school?
A  Uh huh.
Q  Interning and they had a struggle prior to the time before the Army, isn't that correct?
A  (Affirmative nod.)
Q  Now, is there anything in your investigation or anything in the investigation of the Criminal Investigation Division or any other law enforcement agency which would point to any motive which Captain MacDonald would have for killing his wife and two children?
A  Well, you could say a combination of things or you could overlook them or say they are petty or not.
Q  Well, what would those things be, according to your investigation and who said them?
A  I can't say who said them off the top of my head. As I go along, maybe I can -- well, Mrs. Kalin in describing the argument they had and the tempers they had. She seemed to think that maybe Colette even had more of a temper than anyone else in the family; and again Mrs. Kalin was talking about the argument, the reason for the argument being the money handling and his lack of thriftiness, if you call it that. And off the top of my head, that is what I can think of.
Q  Anybody else?
A  Well, first is Mrs. Kalin.
Q  Were they described as violent arguments or just normal household things where a husband and wife --
A  Just called them loud, rather than violent.

Q  Do you recall the incident Mrs. Kalin described to you concerning the television set? Did Mrs. Kalin say she witnessed that argument, herself, or heard it?
A  Right, the television set.

Q  Did she say she heard it herself, or somebody told her?
A  No, she heard -- I do not know whether out in back or out in front, neighbors.

Q  Who did she hear it from?
A  If I recall correctly, she heard the argument. And later on Colette explained it to her, or something.

Q  This was something she was upset with Captain MacDonald that he had purchased a television set?
A  Uh huh.
Q  Did Mrs. Kalin ever say she heard any other argument of this nature or heard this argument continue and simmer or brew or anything like that, or just a one-shot dispute between husband and wife about something he purchased which she didn't think he should?
A  She said she heard a few times, one or three or four.
Q  What else would point to motive for Captain MacDonald to kill his wife and two children?
A  Nothing that could really come out and slap you in the face.
Q  Did anybody describe him as the type of person who would use violence in any general situation? Has he ever used violence before?
A  Any type of violence? Not that I know of.
Q  What leads you to believe that Captain MacDonald killed his wife and two children?
A  Just placing all the evidence that we found in the house and finding the lack of obvious signs of intruders.
Q  When you say intruders --
A  I am talking about four persons entering the house bent on murder or violence. There is just a lack of anything to show that they forced their way into the house, that they banged on walls or knocked things over or vandalized them.
Q  If MacDonald were asleep, according to your information when this -- at least according to Captain MacDonald's statement -- when they came into the house -- isn't that correct?
A  Yes, Captain MacDonald told us that the back door could have been unlocked, because it wasn't their custom to really check on it. Yes, he said that.
Q  And if both, if all four of the MacDonalds had been asleep at the time and people had come in there with the specific intent to kill someone, armed with the type of weapons which we have discussed before, and began killing people, isn't it just as likely that no other type of serious damage could have been done to the premises, other than to the people, if they had come specifically to murder?
A  If they had come, well, we got to put at least five people in the house, we have got to, four people that are attacking Captain MacDonald, and one or more who were attacking Colette MacDonald and the children; according to him, while he was being attacked, his wife was screaming for help in the back of the house.
Q  You do not know whether or not she had been attacked, possibly, and was screaming for help after they had beaten her or assaulted her?
A  That we don't know.
Q  So that would be merely supposition that there were more than four when no more than four were described by Captain MacDonald, is that correct?
A  (Affirmative nod.)
Q  The two children were found in their respective beds, isn't that correct?
A  Yes.
Q  Mrs. MacDonald was found in her bedroom. Is there any evidence of any damage to the premises, as far as you describe, damage to the walls or anything like that?
A  No.
Q  Had there been a violent argument between Captain and Mrs. MacDonald, and had they began hitting, fussing and fighting and had he begun beating her with a club, such as we have shown here, and stabbed her with one of several knives, which you think have been used here, wouldn't there have been some type of damage done to the premises, just as much if not more than if more than one person were doing it?
A  If you have got four people walking in and stabbing, hitting at a person, or persons, it is going to be a little bit more confusing and damaging that if just one person.
Q  Well, if there had been a violent argument, and not people sleeping as Captain MacDonald said,if your theory is that him and his wife had an argument -- I assume that is your theory, that they had an argument and then he went on and butchered his family?
A  (Affirmative nod.)
Q  Had that happened, wouldn't there have been more evidence of a fight than had Mrs. MacDonald been asleep and four people came in and began stabbing and hitting with the club?
A  (Negative shake of the head.)

Q  The interview with Captain MacDonald on April 6, did you participate in that?
A  Yes.
Q  During the course of that interview, one of the investigators -- I do not know which one it was -- stated that in his opinion or in the opinion of the Criminal Investigation Division, that at least two and possibly three of the rooms in the MacDonald house appeared to be "staged."
A  Uh huh.
Q  Could you possibly, starting with the master or east bedroom, state what in your opinion appeared to be "staged" in that room? What sum total of your investigation or your knowledge of the complete investigation, is unexplainable or is not logical, does not logically fit in with what you might have expected of Captain MacDonald's version of the incident that night?
A  All right. We have already gone by the part where at least four intruders did not overly disturb the house. We have taken that. Now the master bedroom --
Q  Excuse me, could we limit ourselves to physical evidence you saw in your contemporarily [sic] saw and viewed it and in what light you viewed this evidence and exactly what evidence was obtainable from the scene and could be interpreted by yourself or the defense?
A  All right. We have got three people, and to use Colonel Kriwanek's term, "overkilled." We have got one thing that isn't reasonable, the lack of serious injury to MacDonald; that is one thing. Staged scenes -- let's take the living room.

Q  All right, let's take the living room. Let us show you some photographs and let you describe what they are and what you think is "staged." I am going to show you a photograph marked number 10. Could you describe what this photograph portrays in general terms?
A  This is the living room, picture of the coffee table.
Q  All right, now what, in reference to this particular picture, to your belief appeared "staged"?
A  Here again, we have got, right in this area here, we have got three men attacking Captain MacDonald, right? There is a lack of any sign on this floor, lack of blood, lack of anything. This table here, it is obviously, if you would see it, if you tried, yourself, if you tried it three million times, you would never get that table like that without setting it like that, without some assistance. You would never get it, I don't care how you try it. The next staged scene are those magazines, which came, according to Captain MacDonald, off the coffee table.
Q  Anything else?
A  You just can't do it. Those are the major things. When we got there, we got these slippers, nice and neat, which could have been kicked during the scuffle, had there been one. No signs of a struggle. On this side, this rug here; you do just a little side-stepping and that rug is going to come from under you.
Q  There had been several people walking past there, including at least two people carrying a stretcher. Do you know whether this was the condition of that rug when the first MPs arrived or whether or not it might have been moved?
A  You say when I arrived?
Q  You don't know what the condition of that rug was before you arrived, do you?
A  No.
Q  If two MPs, or two medics and an MP walked out, could they have disturbed that rug when carrying the Captain out? Was the Captain struggling with them at the time you saw him?
A  No.
Q  It didn't move when two people carrying a stretcher came through and an MP moved out?
A  You mean, had it been folded up and moved back? I am saying if you get on there and try to do any struggling, like I did in this little area here, this rug is going to go right out from under you; it does it every time.
Q  Do you know how long the struggle actually lasted between Captain MacDonald and the assailants?
A  No. A person doesn't describe a fight and say, "All right, I fought with these people five minutes." It could have been thirty seconds.
Q  Now, actually, Captain MacDonald said he was getting up when he was struck in the head with what he thought to be a bat, which might have been this object, this large piece of wood, at that time, what he believes to be more than one time; and as he was getting up he felt like he was punched in the chest, and in his opinion that was probably the puncture wound of his lung, because it felt very, very strong. Could that have taken place in a very brief period of time, approximately even less than ten seconds, or that type of struggle?
A  No.
Q  Could it have taken, for somebody to hit him two or three times on the head and stab at him a dozen or more times, could that have taken place in less than, say, twenty seconds?
A  I would say half a minute, maybe.
Q  And if Captain MacDonald were somewhat disabled by the blow on the head or a puncture wound of the chest, or having his arms entangled in his pajama top, would his ability to fight with them have been lessened as opposed to, say, if he were awake and been prepared for four people to come in and attack him?
A  I guess you would get the shock of when he wakes up and sees these people attacking him.
Q  Let's go into this flower pot. In your interrogation or in somebody's interrogation of Captain MacDonald there was a great deal made of the fact that there was this flower pot sitting upright in this picture and this was shown to him by either yourself or one of the investigators or all three. At least someone stated you felt the scene was staged, is that true?
A  Yes.
Q  Do you know of your own knowledge whether or not that flower pot was moved from the time the MPs arrived until the time this picture was taken or the time you arrived and saw it standing there?
A  No. No, the research I have done, like talking to people, I can't find anybody that moved it.
Q  You have not found anybody who said they saw it in a position different from that?
A  One of the MPs, I believe, thought he saw it laying down; I am not sure which one and I am not sure if he said laying down or he thought it was laying down.
Q  Now as far as the coffee table is concerned, do you know anybody that came in this area on the night or morning of the 17th, after the first MPs arrived and before you arrived, who might have disturbed that table?
A  To my knowledge, no one, going by it, as I asked Lieutenant Paulk had anybody been messing around, anybody touched it and he said, no, as soon as he saw what had happened, he moved them out.
Q  In your conclusion or your supposition that this scene is staged, is it based on the fact, also, that you believe Captain MacDonald killed his family or do you believe Captain MacDonald killed his family because the scene is staged, or both?
A  You will have to go back over that again. It is like, "Do you still beat your wife?"
Q  Did you reach a conclusion that Captain MacDonald killed his family on any evidence, other evidence, before you got into the evidence such as the scenes were staged, or as a result of seeing this scene and seeing other scenes that we have got in photographs, in addition to other evidence, come to a conclusion that Captain MacDonald killed his family? In other words, did you have sufficient evidence before, without looking at the crime scene, to say that Captain MacDonald killed his family? In other words, had you not gone into 554 [sic] Castle Drive that night, do you

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Q  This one.
A  That right there, not the picture, itself, but the scene. This here tells me there was a struggle in that room between Colette and Jeffrey MacDonald; during that struggle his pajama shirt, if not torn off of him, was torn.
Q  What tells you that about that picture? How do you reach that conclusion?
A  We have got right here under her foot, we have got the pocket of that pajama shirt. Now this photograph number 9, there is an object laying on top of the underside of the rug, which is folded over.
Q  Is this what you describe as the pajama pocket?
A  Yes.
Q  Now, what evidence do you have to show that this was ripped off in a struggle between Colette MacDonald and Captain MacDonald?
A  Under her body, within this area here, there was a profusion, not one or two but a profusion of seam threads and fibers from this pajama shirt, which couldn't have gotten there unless she was in an upright position when that pajama shirt was ripped and these threads were on the floor. She was rendered unconscious or killed upright in MacDonald's arms.
Q  Was any part of this torn pajama top found in her fingernails, which would indicate she was grasping at that top?
A  I would have to review the lab report; I am not sure if fibers were found.
Q  If I told you for the sake of argument that there were none found there -- naturally if they were found I would be wrong, but if there were none found there, how could you say that the fibers which you found, what you describe as inside of the body outline, how could you say they got there during a struggle between Captain MacDonald and his wife?
A  If he were wearing the pajama shirt as he says he was, how else?
Q  Captain MacDonald lives at the premises, 544 Castle Drive? Correct?
A  (Affirmative nod.)
Q  He lived there with his family; he never separated from them, is that correct?
A  (Affirmative nod.)
Q  Okay. I mean he wasn't living away, wasn't an intruder on the night of this incident. The pajama was not a new pajama top?
A  Correct.
Q  Is there any way to tell when those fibers got in that position, or, in other words, could they have got there a day before, a week before, if Captain MacDonald wore this set of pajamas on an average of twice a week for the entire time he was living there, is there anything to say that they could not have been there for at least a week when they were found there, anything at all?
A  If he were wearing it in the condition it is now, very possible.

Q  How do you suppose the pajama to preached the position it is in?
A  He put it there.
Q  To your knowledge had it been moved in any way from the time he put it there until the time the photograph was taken?
A  Not to my knowledge.

Q  Was the body of Colette MacDonald moved by anyone, including Captain MacDonald, according to his version of this story?
A  No.

Q  What other items in the master bedroom substantiate your theory?
A  Of, we have got, you can see the corner of this here.
Q  We have no other photograph that shows that portion of the bedroom.
A  That is a pile of bedclothing, this sheet, and next to it or in with it a bedsheet; there is a large amount of blood in that, in the bedding, being hers and Kimberly's. There are hairs from Kimberly in that sheet. I am trying to dig back in the reports to see if some of the fibers of his shirt were there or not. It is not clear in my mind.
Q  In your estimation, did more than one person die in that room?
A  (Shakes head negatively.) One person died in that room, to my knowledge.
Q  From your interpretation of the evidence, the way you look at the evidence, would it appear that more than one, more than two persons, Colette MacDonald and Captain MacDonald were in that bedroom during the episode?
A  I am sure that kimberly was in that room, Kimberly being the older child.
Q  What shows that, from the evidence in the case?
A  We have got an area on that rug and on that doorway, which indicates that; having seen it, it indicates to me Kimberly MacDonald's blood is directly under that rug and under that sheet.
Q  Drops of blood or smears?
A  Drops of blood, direct bleeding or drops of blood rather than somebody coming in with it on their hands.
Q  Was this in large quantities?
A  Quite large enough to say somebody bled there.
Q  Now is that in contradiction or is there any contradiction with Captain MacDonald's story or version, the fact that Kimberly MacDonald might have bled in that room, as opposed to his version? Did he ever say that Kimberly MacDonald definitely never was in that room?
A  He never said that.
Q  Did he have any way of knowing, according to his story, where anybody was killed in the house, other than what he said?
A  Just what he said he saw.
Q  So what significance would it have, as far as your determination that Captain MacDonald killed his family, the fact that Kimberly MacDonald was killed, or might have been killed, or bled in that room?
A  It appears to me she was assaulted and bled in that room and transported from that room back into her room.
Q  Would you say that the evidence shows that there was more bleeding in the master bedroom or more bleeding in her room?
A  Her room.
Q  In what manner did it appear that she was taken back to her room?
A  It appears that she was probably wrapped in the bedsheet in that room and carried from that master bedroom.
Q  Wrapped in the bedsheet in the master bedroom and carried back to her room and deposited there?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Does that have any significance with your version that Captain MacDonald killed his wife and two children?
A  Yes.
Q  Why would Captain MacDonald want to place his child in bed and make it appear as if she were attacked in her own bed, as opposed to being attacked in the master bedroom by individuals? What motive would he possibly have for doing that?
A  You can take it and turn it right around. Why would hippies -- let's call them hippies -- going into the house -- nothing stolen, just murder -- why would they do it?
Q  Is there anything from an affirmative point of view to tell you the reason Captain MacDonald would do that?
A  Reason? No reason. But again, let's go to her room, we found again more seam threads of his pajama shirt.

Q  Do you mean seam threads or fibers from that material?
A  We found both.

Q  Now, assuming that Captain MacDonald, even on the night of the incident, were playing with his children, and on prior occasions played with his children, wearing that particular pajama top, is there anything significant to indicate that these seam threads or threads from the pajamas were placed there on the night of the killing?
A  Unless he wore that pajama shirt in the condition it is now, ripped, with the seam torn asunder. If he wore it like that, it is possible.

Q  Did you observe the pajama top?
A  Yes.
Q  Could you describe it? What seam was ripped out of the pajama top?
A  I think it is on the left side, I believe on the left side, this seam right up here, all the way.
Q  Down the arm?
A  Yes.
Q  Was it ripped in other ways?
A  Yes, ripped down the middle, a V-neck affair.

Q  Were any threads found on the club, the two by two stick which we discussed before? If I told you there were --
A  If you read that in the lab reports, it is so.
Q  If I told you they were found there, according to the lab reports, how would they have gotten there, had Captain MacDonald not been beaten, and had he been the person who was doing the beating, with this in his hand and he was beating his family with this thing, how did they get on it, into the fibers or into the splinters of the wood?
A  If there were any splinters, just from holding it.
Q  Wouldn't it be just as likely that they were there by reason of somebody beating him with the stick as opposed to him beating someone else with the stick, as far as that aspect of the physical evidence is concerned?
A  I would say if he were the only one assaulted, yes.
Q  Well, there was evidence to show that more than one person was assaulted with this stick, isn't there?
A  Yes.
Q  And in addition to the other people who were assaulted, there were fibers found coming from Captain MacDonald's shirt, so wouldn't that, by itself, also could lead to the conclusion that he was assaulted by this stick, viewing that stick, alone?
A  Could be or could be that they were obtained when the shirt was ripped and he was holding the club.

Q  Is that a reasonable explanation of how the fibers got onto that club, as he was holding the club?
A  It could be the club, itself, ripped the shirt.
Q  Or picked up fibers?
A  Anything in the world is possible.

Q  I want a complete description. What other rips and tears were on the shirt besides the lefthand seam all the way through the arm, any other rips?
A  Yes, there were numerous puncture holes.
Q  Numerous puncture holes?
A  As by an ice pick.
Q  Now, would that lead you, do you come to the conclusion that Captain MacDonald was wearing that shirt when he received the wound which he did receive?
A  If he had been wearing that shirt when the punctures were put in there, clean, precise punctures were put in that shirt, he would have been dead.
Q  Let me ask you this, do you happen to know where any ice pick punctures were in the body of Colette MacDonald?
A  Yes, in the chest, brazziere.
Q  Do you know if that [sic] the area of Colette MacDonald which has the puncture wounds, is the area which is covered by the blue shirt in the photograph?
A  No, they were not, directly; it may be on some of the punctures, but the majority are not covered by the pajama shirt.
Q  I am going to show you this photograph, which I think we have described as number C, which is the -- this has been described as the body area outline of Colette MacDonald, is that correct?
A  Yes.
Q  Where were these threads which you have described found in relation to this body outline?
A  The trunk of the body right here and right in here, under the head.
Q  Now, according to Captain MacDonald's statement, didn't he say that he could have moved Colette MacDonald from a position, possibly leaning up against a chair, to a flat position in order to administer to her and take her pulse?
A  No.
Q  Nowhere in your investigation or interviews did he say that?
A  No. At first he said maybe she was sitting up and then he said no, she was lying down.
Q  Did he tell you what he did regarding first aid measures he took for her?
A  Yes, he said that he took a pulse reading.
Q  A pulse what? What pulse?
A  Femoral and throat.
Q  Where is the femoral pulse?
A  (Indicating on the upper inside portion of the femur.) And he administered mouth-to-mouth.
Q  Did Captain MacDonald --
A  And he also said he removed the knife from the chest.

Q  Did he remove what you describe as a towel, to get the femoral pulse?
A  He didn't say.
Q  How did that towel get there?
A  Captain MacDonald put it there.
Q  Why did he put it there?
A  For reasons known only to himself.
Q  All right now, as far as this picture here, which is number 12, what does it show?
A  That is the photograph of Kristy MacDonald in her bed.
Q  Do you have any other evidence to show, other than this, the fact that she was killed in this bed?
A  Would you clarify?
Q  Do you have any evidence to show she was not killed in her bed?
A  No.
Q  And you described, you stated before you thought the scene in the bedroom was staged. What do you think is staged about this scene?
A  I think the biggest thing staged in there is the position of the bottle. This, again, is an angle shot. We have here a shot that you can see at a better angle, with the bottle almost in the baby's mouth.
Q  For what reason would you describe this as a staged scene?
A  The child would have had to have been moved to have all the injuries inflicted on her that were.
Q  Would have been moved or had to move herself?
A  She would have had to have been moved to have all the injuries inflicted; and it seems unreasonable to assume that she would fall back in bed and that bottle be still close to the mouth.
Q  Did you find any fibers in that bedroom?
A  Yes.
Q  Where at?
A  They were on the bedspread, again as reflected in that report.
Q  Whereabouts on the bedspread?
A  In this area.

Q  On top of the bedspread? Could they have gotten there by Captain MacDonald wearing it as he administered to the child or attempted to get pulse readings from the child?
A  If that is what he did.

Q  Do you know what happened to Captain MacDonald's pajama bottom?
A  I am afraid I do.
Q  What happened?
A  The medics who administered to him discarded them before we could get up there.

Q  What possible reason would Captain MacDonald have to place the bottle in the position it was in, if he in fact murdered the wife and two children and wanted it to appear like the other people, other than himself, why would he place the bottle by the child's mouth?
A  Unless he just wanted to show that the child was killed in bed.
Q  He wanted to give that --
A  If he wanted it to look as if they killed the child in her sleep and never moved her.

Q  That is not consistent with his own story that he heard them screaming.
A  He said he heard -- I get the names mixed up -- Kimberly.

Q  Where in the opinion of the investigators was this child killed?
A  In that room, in that bed.
Q  In that bed, you say?
A  Yes.
Q  But not lying in bed?
A  Not in that position.
Q  What position?
A  The injuries were not inflicted in that position.
Q  What position, in your opinion?
A  My opinion, she had to have been lying flat on her back to have the stab wound inflicted in the chest, just by going by the angle of the injuries, whether they are straight-in blows.
Q  Could she have turned over while being stabbed in that position?
A  Then it appears that she was taken and lifted across the bed, that way, and the injuries inflicted in her back.

Q  Now, would this, in your opinion, cause the great pool of blood that is pictured here, beside the bed?
A  Yes.
Q  This, also, quite logically, would cause a great amount of blood to be on the lower extremities of the person holding the child, isn't that correct?
A  (Affirmative nod.)
Q  Do you know if anybody notes how much blood was on the lower extremities of Captain MacDonald?
A  We were told that he was very bloody; but I did not get to see him; when I saw him he was covered by a sheet.
Q  That is when he was being wheeled out?
A  Correct.
Q  Is there anything else "staged" according to your interpretation, in this scene?
A  No.
Q  In this scene of the living room, which we are getting back to, you said that, as many times as you tried, you could not get the table into that position. Do you know how many times Captain MacDonald would have had to have tried to get it in that position, if he "staged" the scene?
A  Once.
Q  What would he do?
A  Just pick it up and set it.
Q  Drawing your attention to the black chair in this picture, with the footstool in front, can you tell what object is lying in that black chair?
A  I don't know.
Q  Was there an object in that chair?
A  It appears there was something in there.
Q  Was it there when you were in the house?
A  If there is something in the chair; it certainly would have been there when I got there. Do you have another shot of that?
A  No, I do not. I direct your attention to the photograph of the living room, which I have marked B, which showed the television set. I would like to ask you what, if anything, in this photograph marked B, lends itself to indicate the hypothesis of a "staged" scene?
A  (Witness shakes head negatively.)
Q  Would you tell me what object is on top of the television?
A  A clipboard and a traffic time place (?).
Q  Do you know if this clipboard is part of the furnishings of the MacDonald household or of the investigators?
A  I believe it belonged to one of the patrol.
Q  Directing your attention to this, will you tell me what this object is?
A  It appears to be a feather.
Q  Can you tell me whether [sic] that item came from?
A  No, I can't.
Q  Was any investigation done of that object?
A  No.
Q  Directing your attention to the photograph marked A --
A  I see what you are getting at. There was a thing over here, either there or in the kitchen, there were some feathers, one of these decorator things.

Q  Do you know what kind of feathers the others were?
A  No.
Q  Were they more decorative than this one?
A  About the same, if I recall.
Q  Was there any investigation to see whether or not they came from the same display or whether or not that feather might have come from some alien source, other than the MacDonald household?
A  No.

Q  Directing your attention to this picture marked A, the first piece being the television set, the center piece being the stereo, can you explain to me what this particular picture lends itself to? Is it of particular importance in this case?
A  Nothing other than it is not disturbed, no kind of struggle in the area.

Q  Did you attempt to put that flower pot in that position?
A  Yes.
Q  Were you able to do it, other than by moving it and placing in that position by hand?
A  No.
Q  If it is your belief that Captain MacDonald "staged" this scene, if that is your belief, then could you give us a reason why he would take the flower pot and place it upright by hand?
A  (Shakes head negatively.)
Q  Could you give us any reason why he would take the table and place it in that position, as opposed to just kicking it over and let it lie where it may?
A  A little less noisy.
Q  Why would less noise at that time make any difference?

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Q  Being a doctor, had he known that he had a pneumothorax at the time and did not know whether his message had been received, because what has been described by the operator as a fairly sketchy message, and it took approximately more than ten minutes for the MPs to get there, wouldn't it be likely, if it were premeditated murder, that -- and wants to save his own skin -- that he would make more effort to have himself safe?
A  He did make two calls.
Q  What happened on the first call?
A  He gave the operator the information and --
Q  He gave that operator clear information as to what the problem was, or was it some type of message? Didn't she direct him to do something else?
A  According to him, he said that he told -- if I can remember, it may be out of context -- he told the operator that he had been stabbed or somebody had been stabbed or somebody murdered and needed MPs and needed medical aid, right away at the house.
Q  And what did the operator tell him?
A  According to him, she then tried to get further identification, his Social Security number, according to him. Whether she did or not, I don't know.
Q  And when was the next call made in relation to the first call?
A  A few minutes later.
Q  How many minutes later?
A  Two minutes.
Q  Was there any reason why he would have waited, if the first operator did not give him indication that help was on the way, why he would have waited two minutes to make a second call, if he were not suffering some type of disability?
A  Suffering a disability and not sure the operator were summoning aid for him? Sure, he was hurting; he made another call.
Q  The first operator made no indication that help was on the way, did she?
A  I think he just dropped the phone.
Q  Well, if he had been stabbed, or stabbed himself in the lung and had a pneumothorax, a punctured lung, would it be more likely that he would have kept on the telephone and kept insisting on something being done at that time, rather than dropping the telephone and waiting two minutes -- which could be described as a long period of time under those circumstances -- and making a second contact?
A  Depending on his frame of mind.
Q  Did you have any indication, first of all, that Captain MacDonald was suffering any disability of mind on that night?
A  (Shakes head negatively.)
Q  Did you have any indication that he was suffering the effects of any drugs or narcotics on that night?
A  No.
Q  Do you have any indication from your investigation that Captain MacDonald ever used or abused drugs and narcotics?
A  (Shakes head negatively.)
Q  Do you know of any member of his family that used drugs?
A  (Affirmative nod.)
Q  Who?
A  His brother.
Q  Any other member of the family?
A  No, I don't know of any other member of the family.
Q  Any indication that Colette used drugs?
A  She used the normal drugs.
Q  She was not what you would describe as a pillhead or a junkie?
A  No.
Q  She took her medication for her pregnancy or weight reducing and other normal things that a woman would do, would take in her condition?
A  (Affirmative nod.)
Q  Let me direct your attention, if I may, to the remaining bedroom in the house and ask you to look at the photographs of this bedroom, 14 and 16, and see if you can relate to us exactly what in your opinion is "staged" in this bedroom, what is out of context, so to speak, considering the fact that she was probably attacked here?
A  If the initial attack had taken place in the master bedroom, she then was carefully put back into her bed, tucked in the bed with the covers. Have you got another shot? I believe --
Q  Here is another shot.
A  Right here, they are tucked in, underneath her.
Q  I will label this photograph E. Is there any indication who may have put her in this bed and tucked her in, in such manner?
A  Yes.
Q  What evidence of that?
A  Go back to the pajamas, the seam threads again being found.

Q  Where found?
A  Underneath the bedclothes.
Q  Any other item of evidence found in or around the bed?
A  Yes, splinters from the club.
Q  Where were any splinters from the club?
A  On the reverse side of the pillow.
Q  Underside?
A  Just on the back side of the pillow.
Q  Towards the headboard?
A  Correct.

Q  Were there any footprints or evidence around the bed, on either side of the bed?
A  No.
Q  Any other evidentiary items around the bed itself?
A  No.

Q  What does the fact that you found splinters from the club mean, as far as your knowledge of this case? What does that mean? How would they get there?
A  That club was probably used on the child.
Q  Where?
A  In the bed.

Q  Again, in the bed, after the child had been placed in the bed?
A  (Affirmative nod.)

Q  You are saying, to your investigation, the child was first killed or first assaulted or stabbed somewhere else; then brought back to the bed and then assaulted with the club, is that correct?
A  I say again, with the club.

Q  Directing your attention to picture number 14, which shows a record player in the corner of the room in question. I ask you what object is in the corner of the room, and what relevance would that record player have?
A  The record player has no relevance. And this object here was like others, they are a part of her toys.

Q  Have you had occasion to make any affidavit as to any physical evidence which you wish to obtain at this time?
A  (Affirmative nod.)
Q  What was this affidavit pertaining to?
A  Hair samples.
Q  Hair samples from whom?
A  Captain MacDonald.
Q  What did you want to take hair samples for?
A  For comparison.
Q  With what?
A  With a yet unknown hair.
Q  Where was that hair found?
A  In the hand of Colette.
Q  Can you tell which hand?
A  The left hand.
Q  When was the hair found in the hand of Colette? Are you saying in the hand or in the area?
A  In the hand.
Q  When was this hair found inside of the hand of Colette MacDonald?
A  At the morgue.
Q  Is there any reason why there was some type of delay of something like two and a half months before the Criminal Investigation Division decided they wanted hair samples from Captain MacDonald?
A  No. You have got the laboratory report back, all known hair samples, Colette and the children, and we exhausted all those samples and it is still an unknown hair.
Q  Where was it found, clinched in the hand, or under the fingernails?
A  I can say in the hand.

Q  From what part of the body was this hair?
A  That is why we wanted hair samples.
Q  You do not know what part of the body this hair was from?
A  No.
Q  Is it a human hair? Are you certain of that?
A  Yes.

Q  Do you have any explanation of how that hair got there?
A  In the struggle between Colette and Captain MacDonald.
Q  From which hand did Captain MacDonald say he took the pulse?
A  He didn't say he took a hand pulse; he said a throat and a femoral.
Q  The hair samples found near the body of Colette, was it taken to the laboratory for comparison?
A  Yes.
Q  And there were no hairs in their hairbrush that could be identified?
A  No, we had no comparative sample.
Q  Did they take body hair samples from Colette?
A  Pubic hairs?
Q  Yes.
A  No.
Q  So at this point, it would be impossible to compare that hair with any pubic hair samples of Colette MacDonald, is that correct?
A  Yes.

Q  Referring to picture Number 1, I ask you to note the corner of the bed, a striped blue bed mattress; when you came in the house, was that mattress exposed?
A  The corner of it was exposed.
Q  Have you seen any other photographs, have any subsequent photographs shown that mattress not to be exposed?
A  Yes.
Q  Do you know when those photographs were taken?
A  The next day.
Q  Do you know how or why the mattress was covered?
A  We started processing, and we were looking for evidence that was in the fold.

Q  You say "threads" as opposed to "fibers" -- do you have any indication that the thread holding on the pocket might have been different than the thread holding the seams together?
A  I do not have the vaguest idea; the examiner could possibly tell you.

Q  Did the laboratory technicians, as they found each individual piece of evidence, be it a splinter or wood or fingerprint, did they photograph the item as it lay?
A  Photographs were made of some items, others were not.
Q  Was the exact location with reference to what point, which room or on what wall a piece of evidence was found, was that made?
A  (Affirmative nod.)
Q  Do you have in your possession, or does the Criminal Investigation Division have in its possession a report which would tell us exactly where each item listed in the laboratory report was found in the house, so it could be pinpointed on a diagram?
A  (Affirmative nod.)

Q  Let me ask you this, with reference to fingerprints -- my reading of the laboratory report shows that there were fingerprints found of people who were not identifiable, not the family, not Ron Harrison, not MPs or investigators there at the scene -- what is the significance of that fact?
A  Other persons in the house.

Q  Have you taken the unidentifiable fingerprints found in the house, incapable of being matched with any comparison set available and sent those to any central list agency for comparison with any fingerprints that may be on record?
A  Such as the NCIB (?)?
Q  Or the FBI?
A  We are continually processing, receiving fingerprints of suspicious persons throughout the country, and we have not -- I don't know if the examiner down there has sent the classification off.
Q  I believe they can send these to the FBI Laboratory and they can match these and have done this to your knowledge?
A  To my knowledge? Not to my knowledge.

Q  Any attempt made to determine who, if anyone, had been in the MacDonald household in the last month before the incident, to try to level down the number of people who might have made the fingerprints?
A  They had parties, and anyone in the party could have made the print; it could have been the Kassabs at Christmas.
Q  Did you take the Kassabs' fingerprints?
A  No.
Q  Did you take the fingerprints of anyone who was known to have been in the house, to make comparison, so you could eliminate those belonging to the persons known to have been in the house? For example, Kalin's daughter, who babysat,

Webmaster note:  The last words above are the last words appearing on page 69 of the original transcript. Pages 70 and 71 are missing. Page 72 continues below.

A  A babysitter.
Q  We have an ice pick, which you think that Captain MacDonald told another investigator that he had an ice pick but this particular ice pick was never identified, is that correct?
A  Not this particular one.
Q  And as far as the wood is concerned, you believe that came from the house because of the fact that there was paint on it which was similar to the paint and similar to [an] outline which has been found somewhere else in the houe and other objects, that is the basis?
A  (Affirmative nod.)

Q  Did you make a search of the crime scene?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you direct the search or were you just one of the searchers?
A  I directed a portion.
Q  Did you find any other pieces of lumber outside of the house in any way similar to the stick in question?
A  Similar to the one in question?
Q  By similar, I mean of relatively the same size, give or take a foot?
A  Outside the back door and to the left of the back door, there is a crawlway under the house.
Q  Underneath the house?
A  There was some lumber under there.
Q  Could you describe this lumber very generally? Was it approximately the same size?
A  No, it was scrap lumber, some painted, some was not.
Q  Did any of the paint of that lumber match this?
A  No, if I remember right, green paint.
Q  Were any of these pieces of lumber club size?
A  Oh, I guess they could have been club size, yes. Yes, it could be considered club size.
Q  The same type of wood, both types pine, both oak, or do you know?
A  It was just different pieces, sizes and shapes; it might be different types.
Q  Was this clearly visible to anyone standing on the walkway of the house?
A  No.
Q  One would have to go over and look down and discover it?
A  Yes.
Q  None of this lumber reached above the breezeway?
A  (Affirmative nod.)
Q  Any footprints or signs of anybody having been in that area?
A  No, there were not.
Q  Were any footprints in back of the house?
A  There weren't.
Q  Any signs of anybody having recently been in that area, for instance, digging a hole or moving the earth?
A  Digging a hole, no.
Q  Any signs that anybody had recently been in the utility room when you first entered?
A  No more than family wear and tear.
Q  Any water, for instance, or rain water in the utility room, when you first got there, or muddy footprints?
A  When I got that far, I did notice there were some little pieces of grass that the MPs said they tracked in, which in fact was still wet.
Q  Do you know what MPs first went in the utility room?
A  One of three people, Tevere, Mica, or Morris, I don't know.
Q  Are the garbage pails located back of the utility room?
A  No, they were by the kitchen.
Q  By the kitchen door?
A  Yes.
Q  Can you tell me the contents of the garbage pails?
A  Empty.
Q  They were empty?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Were they emptied that night?
A  At that time that night, it looked like they had been emptied, no refuse in them, had to be emptied that day.
Q  By "that day," you mean the 16th of February or the morning of the 17th?
A  The morning of the 17th, whenever the schedule was. If it was the 16th, there was no refuse since it was emptied.
Q  Do you recall any refuse being in the kitchen?
A  Yes, there was; a little wastebasket.
Q  Garbage pail?
A  Yes.

Q  Anything else you can think of, other than the matters we have discussed, anything we haven't discussed?
A  Offhand, I can't think of anything.

Q  The tables and whatnot, are they still located at 554 [sic] Castle Drive?
A  Not all.
Q  Is the table still at 554 [sic] Castle Drive?
A  Yes.
Q  Any bloodstains on the table?
A  No.
Q  Any other stains?
A  Stains?
Q  Stains or other foreign object?
A  (Shakes head negatively.) There was a wax substance.
Q  Could you describe the wax substance?
A  Describe it?
Q  Well, for example, was it wax or crayon or a mark from a drip of a candle?
A  It looked like probably from a candle.
Q  Paraffin-like substance dropped on the table?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What does the significance of a candle have in the case, according to Captain MacDonald's verson?
A  He said that the girl he observed at the foot of the couch was holding something, a flashlight or possibly a candle.
Q  Was that wax found to be similar or different from wax found in the house, other candles?
A  Again, I have to reach back into the laboratory reports. It is reflected in the laboratory reports.
Q  Did you search the house, inside of the house first, or did you direct that?
A  I directed portions of it, conducted most of it.
Q  Did anyone find any rubber gloves in that house?
A  (Affirmative nod.)
Q  Could you tell me where anybody found any rubber gloves?
A  I found some rubber gloves in the kitchen, about eight pairs, seven or eight pairs.
Q  Seven or eight pairs. Could you tell me where they were located?
A  Under the sink, the cabinet on the left side, in the rear, behind a lot of cleaning articles.
Q  I show you a picture, which will be marked Number 6, which shows, I believe, a portion of the kitchen.
A  That corner, in there.
Q  Were there any other gloves in the kitchen?
A  In the kitchen?
Q  Other than that?
A  Now, these that were here were surgical gloves, Playtex rubber gloves. There were some women's dishwashing rubber gloves here, you can see the fingers of them.
Q  Did you find any pieces of gloves in the house?
A  Yes, sir, found some pieces of -- they tell us -- surgical gloves.
Q  Where did you find these pieces?
A  In the master bedroom.
Q  Approximately where in the master bedroom?
A  There.
Q  I will mark this, this will be number "H."
A  A portion there; I am going to draw a circle.
Q  What other portions of rubber gloves did you find?
A  On the bed and in this bundle of bedding.
Q  You found a portion of rubber glove in the bedding?
A  Yes.
Q  Was the complete entire glove reconstructed? Was any portion --
A  No.
Q  -- missing? Did you examine the portions of the glove?
A  Yes.
Q  Could you make any observation as to what parts of the glove?
A  The part that was found in the bedding was a finger.
Q  A finger?
A  Yes.
Q  Could you make any identification of the other?
A  No.
Q  Did you find any in any other portion of the MacDonald household area, and do you have the rest of the glove?
A  (Shakes head negatively.)
Q  Did you count the number of gloves that were in the house?
A  Uh huh.
Q  There [sic] they odd or even in numbers?
A  Pairs. They were packaged, in sealed packages.
Q  Were there any open packages?
A  (Shakes head negatively.) Other than the rubber gloves pictures [sic] above the sink.
Q  Were there any gloves, other than those above the sink, that you found that were not packaged?
A  No.
Q  Did you find any packaging?
A  No.
Q  And you found no other glove in the entire area in which these particles were recovered?
A  No, sir.
Q  Do you have any idea as to what might have happened to the remaining portion of the rubber glove?
A  I have got an idea; flushed.
Q  Flushed down the commode?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you examine the plumbing in the house?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you find any?
A  No.
Q  Is there in the commode a trap, a U-trap, which would have been taken away to disclose what contents may have been flushed down the commode?
A  (Affirmative nod.)
Q  Did you do this?
A  (Affirmative nod.)
Q  Did you find anything in that?
A  (Shakes head negatively.)
Q  In other words, did anyone flush the commode after you came in the house?
A  No.
Q  Do you have any idea -- approximately how many flushes it might take to completely clear that U-trap area?
A  No, I don't.
Q  Did you find any debris in the trap area?
A  There was normal sediment.
Q  Sediment? Can you describe normal sediment?
A  Calcium buildup that you see.
Q  Any toilet tissue?
A  No.
Q  What object, if anything, did you find?
A  Just the sediment of the water.
Q  In other words, as far as you could tell, it was clean?
A  (Affirmative nod.)

Q  Any blood inside of the commode?
A  There again, I would have to refer back. I believe on a portion of the commode there was.
Q  Inside or outside?
A  Outside.
Q  Was there any blood on the handle of the commode or on the commode, which would appear --
A  No.
Q  Any place on the commode where it would appear that blood may have been washed off?
A  No.
Q  Did anybody run a test as to how many times it might take to flush that trap of the commode?
A  No. That would defeat our purpose.
Q  After you checked it?
A  No.
Q  Were there any fingerprints on that piece of wood?
A  No.

Q  Would it take fingerprints?
A  I don't know; I haven't dealt in that, as to whether it would retain a print or whether [it] would be obliterated.
Q  You never found the package from which that glove came?
A  No.
Q  Were they packaged in cardboard or just cellophane?
A  They were about fourteen inches long, about five or six inches wide, white paper with black letters, saying Perry, I believe was the trade name, Playtex surgical gloves.
Q  In paper or cellophane?
A  Paper.
Q  Was there any board backing?
A  No.
Q  Could it be easily flushed down the toilet?
A  Yes, easily, just paper. In fact, lighter than newspaper.
Q  Did you ever test flushing it down, by balling it up in a ball?
A  No.
Q  Is it consistent with your theory of Captain MacDonald have probably been in a hurry, after having committed these crimes and therefore wounding himself before he called the police, and afraid the neighbors may have heard, that he would take the time and effort to flush the toilet the number of times it would take to completely get rid of this evidence?
A  Yes.
Q  You think he would have had time to do that?
A  Yes. We have never tested it with flushing items down the drain.
Q  Don't you think it might be well to check and determine how long it takes for the tank to fill back up, and things of that sort?
A  I could do it.

Q  Is the toilet back in the same condition it was before?
A  No.
Q  Did you find any blood outside of the premises?
A  No human blood.
Q  Did you find any blood or anything in the utility room?
A  (Shakes head negatively.)
Q  Any fibers or hairs in the utility room?
A  No.
Q  Did you find any object or article of clothing in the house which was wet or had grass on the bottom, that indicated it had been out that evening, outside?
A  In the utility room?
Q  In the house, itself?
A  A bathrobe.
Q  Will you describe the condition of the bathrobe?
A  White terrycloth robe, or whatever you want to call it.
Q  Was it wet on that evening?
A  It was not wet when I tested it, but it had some grass around it.
Q  On the base portion?
A  On the base, on the bottom. It wasn't a large amount, pieces of grass.
Q  Whose bathrobe was that?
A  It belonged, -- well, both used it, according to the neighbors.
Q  Now, where was this found?
A  Hanging over the door in the master bedroom, the door of the hallway, bedroom door.
Q  Anything else you can think of?
A  No.

The witness is excused.

Webmaster note:  The original stenographer's misspellings of Trever, Kalim (and Kalem), Collette, Pamilla, Summers, Conley, Corrigadore, Pendleshock and Kojwonik were corrected to Tevere, Kalin, Colette, Pamela, Somers, Connolly, Corregidor, Pendlyshok and Kriwanek, respectively, in this transcript. Because the questioner spelled out the name Coahn, that misspelling of this name, which correctly is spelled Cohen, was left as is.